I have seen the info here https://www.givenergy.co.uk/images/GE-A5-V1.4%20PF.pdf and I along with lots of other people (No doubt) interested in this product to compliment the setup. Is this product ready for general use and could you provide a little more detail cost / how it works etc. Thanks Jason
JasonCartwright
All the products in the brochure are available today.
GivEnergy have a network of suppliers and installers. They will provide quites etc.
You can find these via this link https://www.givenergy.co.uk/localstore
They work by storing energy from PV or off peak from the grid, and then releasing it at a time of your choosing to meet your needs.
So the power diverter is available now? When I asked customer services at the end of September they said it was going to launch in Q1 next year, but to take that timing with a pinch of salt! Has is really become available early?? Great news if correct.
Bump - anyone had this fitted yet any pictures or an update from anyone, approximation of price etc. Thanks
simon_swinburne can you provided anymore information on the power diverter and how it fits into the ecosystem?
I have just had a battery & AC coupled inverter installed as part of a new Solar PV system. I had asked for a Solar iBoost (manufacturer Marlec) when I placed my order in the summer. I had an iBoost with a PV system at a previous house. s The supplier didn't mention the GivEnergy diverter, perhaps it wasnt avaialble then.
Setting up the iBoost has been a bit of an art not a science. It has only got one varaible setting ie the export power flow at which it triggers diversion. Its default is 100w. Users can vary this in 50w steps. I found I need to set it to 200w to stop it being triggered by a large house demand load coming off eg when a kettle stops boiling.
I was actually to suggest to givEnegy they develop such a product when I saw mention of their diverter in this forum!!
I paid £300 for the iBoost. It would be interesting to know the GivEnergy product price.
At my previous house/ installation I found the iBoost excellent value for money as in the summer months it heated all the domestic hot water and as I had the secondary ouput wired to 2x dual source (CH & electric) towel rails in the bathrooms I could turn off the Gas CH most of the time and still have hot water & dry towels. The wiring for this could be done reasonably simply as teh house was a bungalow with an accessible solum (cellar).
I'd encourage GivEnergy to promote / develop their diverter product with an ability to control other loads via remote switches. The bathroom towel rails would be my first choice as they are similar to the water tank being a useful energy dump/store. Would another option be to drop loads eg a Freezer and perhaps Fridge (within parameters) to minimise grid input / maximise battery charging or would the net gain be zero as they might then need to draw power to re establish their operating temperature?
I'll see how I get on with the iBoost but also be interested to know how the givEnergy diverter performs and its cost as it might be worth swopping for better integration (and sell on the iBoost).
I'd never even head of the Givenergy power diverter before seeing this thread and it's not mentioned on the product page on the website.
We do want one added to help heat not water but our installers in September suggested an Eddi. Either because they too didn't know about the Givenergy one or they don't suggest it.
That’s a shame as the description in the Givenergy product catalog sounds good.
“ The GivEnergy power diverter is a new device to join the GivEnergy family of products. Its purpose is to divert excess generation or cheap rate electricity to devices such as an immersion heater. It can be used on its own or alongside our battery storage systems. On its own it can make use of split rate energy tariffs automatically and connects through to our portal. This will enable you to heat water from cheap rate electricity to store for later use.
Alongside solar it can be used to divert excess generation to the immersion heater instead of sending energy back to grid. The App and Portal will show you the demand in the property so that you can keep track of your energy use and determine whether adding generation or a battery system would be the right fit for you. If added alongside one of our battery systems, you can choose which takes priority of the excess generation or even split it evenly between the 2.”
But is seems to have made it into the catalog long before it’s ready to launch, finger crossed it is coming at some point.
My installers have just informed me that the datasheets for these are going to be made available this month, with the product being released "Q1".
We'll wait to see what appears before getting booked in for 2 of some brand at least to be fitted.
Little Nudge with the sun now topping up my Battery to full I would like to know when this will be available - any better dates from the GE Team?
Does anyone know what this product would do that a Solar iBoost doesn't?
wilfleek according to the entry that was in the product catalog last year at will interact within the Givenergy environment and allow you to chose where to put excess solar, either in the battery or to the diverted (which would likely be to an immersion heater but could be something else). So while it essentially would be the same as an iboost or eddie it would work with the system rather than when the system had finished charging and started charging exporting, giving greater control and all in one app/portal. At least that’s my understanding.
I’m quite interested in this too. Though I’m trying to work out what the difference is to just buying a simple thyristor controller and modulate that from my current heating controller via a 0-10v dc modulating signal?
I’ve already proven concept by exporting the “live” data from GIvTCP to my existing controller.
There will be a 10seconds or so delay in the data transfer but I can’t see it being much quicker with a dedicated unit?
I do have the obvious advantage that I have most of the hardware available already.
My installers still have nothing form Givenergy. They are now pricing me up an install from one of the other options.
The listing in the product catalog seems to have disappeared and no one from Givenergy seems interested in responding on this thread, so probably safe to say they aren’t pushing it for an imminent release.
Hi
I've got my fingers crossed that they launch something soon.
After lots of research and quotes i've finally put down for a PV array with GE kit, and a diverter for water heating is something i definitely want to add.
Interestingly, one company advised me against having an iBoost with a battery system due to conflicts in operation, so a device from GE that integrates with the rest of the system sounds superb.
I also hope they develop they own version of the Zappi for when i eventually an a EV to my home.
dp100 yes my installer mentioned possibly conflicts to, but that was over 18 months ago before a GE version was touted. At the time they advised to set the immersion heater on a timer for the sunny bit of the day, which works but doesn’t modulate the draw to match exports, just on or off.
Obviously there is a balance to be struck about the investment in fancy kit to make use of “free” electricity, especially when you can sell exports and buy cheap in the night. Which currently for me balances out, but probably won’t as import prices seem to increase quicker that exports do.
I find my Solar iBoost works just fine, and am not sure just what advantages a GE version would bring, apart from not spending any money at all as it is not yet available, lol.
To be fair a solic 200 (ebay £120) & a smart switch linked to a decent contactor (I don't trust the piddly little relays in most wifi switches) achieves a very economical alternative.
One of these is only £80 https://www.i-acs.co.uk/store/ax-mpr1-4-axio-single-phase-4-0kw-thyristor.html
Ok, you also need a controller to get a 0-10v signal to power and some way of enabling it based on the available power. Something I can do very easily at home.
Interesting to see that they have both a car charger and a diverter on the portal login page.
We now know that they are working on a car charger.....
There is an air source heat pump that too. I was told by my ASHP installer the other week that Givenergy had said they were working on a was to monitoring different energy consumption in the home by using multiple CT clamps.
To me, using excess solar PV to heat hot water is a waste. You can heat hot water by gas for much less than by electricity and once done, you can only use as hot water. Far better to store the electricity and use it for whatever you want -- lighting, TV, internet, cooking, washing machine, dishwasher, etc.etc. Diverting to hot water is using a very high tech means of doing a very low tech job for which there are cheaper alternatives. I admit though that I have Solar Hot Water panels too that were installed 40 years ago and still work fine.
Running a (gas) boiler just for hot water isn't at all efficient in gas usage, and can the extra start/stop cycles will reduce the boiler life.
Also, at the moment gas costs me 4.04p/kWh against the value of 4.1p/kWh for electricity export to grid, and the overall efficiency of an immersion heater is better than via a gas boiler.
So, In the summer, when the PV panels produce more electricity than I use and the central heating is off, I use an immersion heater timed to be on 1pm to 3pm. In the winter when the central heating is on and the PV output is low, the boiler heats the water.
(All helped by a well-insulated hot water tank that keeps the hot water hot enough for a shower/ bath for over a day)
"You can heat hot water by gas for much less than by electricity and once done, you can only use as hot water. Far better to store the electricity and use it for whatever you want -- lighting, TV, internet, cooking, washing machine, dishwasher, etc.etc"
I think that you are missing the point.
The concept behind diverters is to use the generated electricity that is surplus AFTER you've powered all that stuff, in order to minimise grid export. Diverting that excess into heating the water means that you aren't using the gas at all and nothing is cheaper than free.
Zakalwe Ah but I think you are missing MY point - keeping the surplus electricity as electricity in a battery is much more valuable than the export tariff. Electricity you can use is worth the IMPORT tariff. I have a number of friends who divert to hot water and then buy electricity in the evening at import rates for cooking dinner and watching TV. Solar divert to hot water was the old way of storing surplus PV. Battery is much more flexible and cost saving though a battery system is also much more expensive to buy than an Eddi.
I think the best place to store the energy is in a car 🚗 as 10kw is 40p and roughly 40 miles but a gallon of fuel is £6+
Just a shame they are so expensive. Car to grid charging would be the answer as a storage buffer, I hope the new Givenergy charger will be compatible with the new cars that can do this!
kwmc sure I see your point, however for me personally I need the house battery to smooth out the load during the day as the sun goes in and out. Even 8.2 kW struggles to cope during the night when demand is high. For me the vehicle would be home when diner is being cooked etc. and then all night, so having a big reserve would be great, possibly allowing me to move away from Gas to some electric heating.
CARLMW the powerwall can only dump electricity in big 'chunks' with no real finessse, no feedback and no real control. So the Givenergy system modulates the 'dumb' car dump. I get paid to export from 4pm to 7pm. I continue to run the 'discharge' from the car up to 8:30, and start cooking at 7pm when my 'peak export' is finished. The Givenergy absorbes any 'discharged' electricity not used in cooking etc, but also when I run the microwave, cooker and oven together I draw from the batteries. Then finally the dishwasher first load starts arounf 8pm and the bulk of that is covered by the car as well. I think V2G works as V2G and not V2H. If you want to use it as V2H you must have a givenergy system looking after it, else you will just waste electricity sending it to the grid. During my allocated 'export time' I do get 15p/kwh so it is worth it then. When it falls to 5p/kwh I would hate to send electric to the grid.
The car battery does have a use as a massive 'heat sink' for summer solar. for me effectivly 4 x 8.2 batteries, for free. Also in winter to top up with cheap electric - I only put 8 miles on the car each day, so the battery is almost always around 90% when I need to discharge.
It has really worked for me as I already had two leaf cars in the family - so the 'cost' of the car was effectivly nil, and because of the trial the Quasar was free.
Indeed.
I look on it this way: My car charges at specific times when electricity is cheap. I heat my water with gas, again on a scheduled timer (based on when the hot water is needed- first thing in the morning and in the evening).
Outside those hours, if the house needs are taken care of and the battery is full then any surplus generation is just that- surplus. So, to me, it makes more sense to dump that surplus into the hot water tank or into the car rather than exporting it.
We use oil to heat the water, so this will help once the battery or car are full.
I am strongly considering adding a diverter to my setup. It'd be great to know if GE are to actually add one to the lineup.
dp100 I have iBoost with GE hybrid inverter and battery. You need to adjust the iBoost trigger threshold, Ive got mine set to 200w and things are working well. Yesterday which was sunny here (east central Scotland) - I have 6kW panels with enphase microinverters. The battery was 100% charged by 1pm (from 10%) during that time 2 washes and 1 dishwasher run. After 1pm the power was diverted by the iBoost to the hot water cylinder a total of 6.32kWh and then 'tank hot' form then I was then exporting surplus (and I haven't got a SEG in place yet!)
The trigger isn't precise and that would be the advantage of a GE product; but sadly it doesn't sound like its going to be available anytime soon. With too low a trigger point the iboost and GE controllers get a bit confused with each other and I found the iBoost was triggering and taking a bit of battery power for a few minutes before it worked our what was going on (non technical descrption!) and switched off.
As I say with the trigger set at 200w on the iBoost its working v well.
I'm a fan of surplus diverters and in a previous installation - further north - (with no battery) I had the iboost also powering (via its second output) the towel rails in 2 bathrooms. In summer gas was completly off most of the time and we had domestic hot water and dry towels from Solar.
The 2022 product brochure is now on the Knowledge Base (under End User Management). It contains info on the power diverter.
Zakalwe good to see that it hasn’t slipped off the roadmap. However that is the same information that appeared in the product brochure last summer and that no one from Givenergy has commented about on this thread in the months it has been here. I hope the power diverter arrives, but will be more encouraged when it shows up for sale here https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/giv-energy
For the hot water diverter option, I fitted a 16amp Frient smart cable (switch) for £35. I just inserted it into the existing immersion power cable. But it does require some form of smart home app/hub (I use Home Assistant running on a Synology NAS) to control it over zigbee (not wi-fi) based on GE API data (e.g. export W > 200).
Hi.
I’ve come here trying to find out the latest with rumoured GE diverter, or failing that what the current best alternative is for working alongside a GE inverter and battery.
After months of waiting I’ve finally got my PV install date (end July) and would be keen to sort out a diverter to make the most of the remaining summer sun.
The myenergie Eddi looks great but is on back order until August.
I run Homeassistant and the idea of remote controlled switches for my immersion ( Shelly , etc) looks nifty but these are either 100% on or off and a ‘trickle device’ is a more appropriate pairing for my setup where I want only want to heat using my excess. I won’t have an EV for at least 18 months…
I hear about conflicts between diverter and PV batteries but have struggled to find full details about this on either this or other forums. I’ve heard iBoosts and solids can be an issue. Eddi’s less so.
So far unless GE give an update about their device (which would be my preferred choice) it looks likes I’ll be putting in a preorder for an Eddi.
Cheers
I bought a immersun diverter. Expensive but seems well made. And U.K. made (from bits from China no doubt) so ticked some boxes for me. And a tree was planted in Madagascar.
Works really well. We don’t have much excess but when we do it just works I did set the export limit to 100w from the default 50 to ensure battery priority- keep meaning to put it back to 50 and see what happens. It’s meant to be battery friendly.
We have a Solar iBoost.
In constant-state conditions it works fine, i.e. clear blue sky. (set to come on with <200W of export to the grid). So the battery gets fully charged first, then any excess solar above 200W goes into the immersion. Which is just as I want it.
However - as soon as conditions are not constant (i.e. sunny intervals with some clouds obscuring the sun) you realise that the iBoost response time is faster than the GiVenergy AC3.0 that we have. So what then happens is - the sun comes back out, the solar output rises, and the iBoost immediately "snaffles" that power. Then the AC3.0 belatedly realises that there is power available to feed the battery but sees the iBoost as "house load", so usually starts discharging the battery into it, and ramping the immersion up to its full 3kW.
This may be OK if it is happening early in a day with a lot more solar energy to come, but usually it happens too late in the day for the battery to be fully recharged after the immersion thermostat says "enough".
Not the end of the world, but not optimal, either. If the impending GiVenergy diverter would allow battery priority and never discharge the battery, I would go for it. Your priorities may differ though.
I've changed the setting on mine back to default this afternoon - ideal day to try it as it is very mixed. Hopefully it won't discharge the battery into it - but I do know 100w works fine.
My home assistant setup only uses excess. Node red logic to monitor battery state and switch on at 100% SoC (optional extra to predict upcoming sun to make sure will recharge afterwards). Also cheap as already had the Synology, uses existing immersion element plus the Frient smart switch was £35 compared to iboost etc.
I did try that as a temporary measure. But i found it too coarse a control.
This solution is not ideal as I can’t see the energy consumption. I do have on loan some kit from work that I could in theory use - but I know I would want to keep it and add more circuits. (It’s a full blown modbus wireless circuit monitor. ) actually I wonder if the ct clamps are zigbee. I have an idea if they are.
I hate not knowing the water temp.
jkazer oh I know the water temperature. It’s on my heating control system. Both the bottom of the tank and the outlet.
Control is via a sensor in the bottom by the thermostat in a pocket and the outlet one a strap on sensor. Obviously that is just indication as it only works when there is flow or a bit of convection.
The thermostat is wired back to the control system and wound up to max so the solar diverter heats the water to 60’c where as the boiler is set to 50’c.
50C seems a bit low for the boiler tank temperature. AFAIK it should be always set to heat to at least 60C to prevent any possibility of legionella.
50 is just fine - at point of use it will be mixed with cold anyway and it grows between 20 and 45'C - killed at 60+
But I did say the bottom of the tank is set for 50 - it actually comes out and around 58'C - when its solar heated (And got to temperature (its nearer 70'C.)
I got a Solic 200 a couple of weeks ago and it's working perfectly. I'm doing some work on the heating system at the moment and have it disconnected, so all our hot water is coming from surplus solar generation. Since my battery hasn't turned up yet (ordered in October with the panels and inverter), I'm very happy to use surplus generation instead of gas.
wilfleek
Thanks for detailing your installation and the 'power grab' issue you're having. It's an scenario i hadn't envisaged until you mentioned it. Are there any settings on the iBoost you can change to prevent this happening?
I wonder if the response time is any different on the other GE models? I'm waiting on a Gen2 hybrid.
Looks like the Givenergy Power Diverter has slipped off the agenda in favour of the EV charger and the teased smart plugs, shame.
Yeah, I just had a response from them stating that the Power Diverter will be available late next year, so I've reluctantly had to purchase an alternative.
As a cheap alternative (considering how much Eddi's are retail) and there's a complete lack of availability for Solar Immersion Diverters (Solar iBoost orders are full until February 2023 currently).
As you are considering remotely triggering it you could potentially use a T-Smart Immersion although it will depend whether you have an immersion element compatible with their products. Bonus is that you can also see what temperature your water is currently
https://www.tsmart.co.uk/
For anyone else thinking about this - using a smart plug won't work with a 3kW immersion (although there are some immersions that use lower power elements) it will either flat out not work or will burn out your smart plug in short order.
Drayton Wiser (Schneider) had a promising product that will take a 16A load (that's the recommended current rating for a 3kW immersion heating element) but then for some reason known only to themselves they decided that it would only work if you had it paired to its own Thermostat. Which makes no sense, as its use case is suggested as controlling electric radiators/heaters etc all of which already have their built in thermostats........ so why would you require another Thermostat.....
magician2905 Just bought a Tsmart - looking forward to installing it and seeing what I can do with it. It wasn't expensive, even including a new element (that bit is only about £50 of the £150ish price). Very glad I looked at this as the existing wiring to current immersion cant have been heat rated at it was completely black and perished - eek! A note for anyone looking at the same - I originally bought the wrong one as there are different models for side entry immersion and top entry. You can buy just the thermostat and smarts, but that is only compatible with side entry.
Very inexpensive experiment compared to a full blooded Power Diverter, I did also consider GivE smart plug but discounted for reasons above - you could use to act as a trigger to a higher rated switch/contactor (which would work - ive read up on a few examples), then I realised that you only really need to control the thermostat temperature to switch the tank on and off . In the end Tsmart looks like a good option - in isolation for now - heating the immersion 2am-4am, 2pm-4pm and then reverting to oil boiler to top up temp to 60oC in primetime hours (and deal with any Legionella). I like to think of it as another battery in my system - did some maths and I think my hot water cylinder is equivalent to a 4KwH battery as a thermal energy store, adding 40% to my GivE battery capacity. Apparently there is a Home Assistant "component" / API so if I find myself with a few weeks to spare 😉 to remind myself how to code I might try that too.
How do you get 16A into a resistive 3kW, 230V load???
PeterH
Nice.
You can work out how much energy you are using with this formula:
X = (4.2 × Litres [in HW Cylinder] × Temperature Increase) ÷ 3600 x Energy Cost (£/kwh)
So for example 200litres need to be raised from 50'C to 60'C once per week for Anti-Legionella @ £0.35/kWh.
Would give 4.2 x 200 x 10'C=8400 ÷ 3600 = 2.33kWh x £0.35/kwh = £0.82 x 52weeks = £42.47 per year.
(example is to run an Anti-Legionella cycle once per week)
Obviously you can use that formula or rearrange it to work out whichever part your interested in
How do you get 16A into a resistive 3kW, 230V load???
That's NOT what was stated.......
It is recommended that a 3kw Immersion Element for a Hot Water Cylinder should have it's own circuit protected by a 16A MCB (RCBO etc).
You can actually run a 3kw Immersion Element on a standard 3 Pin Plug (that's no different to 99% of kettles) and assuming your house is wired sensibly plugging that into a socket should be using a circuit that has a 16A MCB.
You are unlikely to run a 3kw Immersion Element on a Smart Plug (100% doesn't work with Drayton Wiser) - the switching load is too high and trips the smart plug. That is despite manufacturer claims that they are compatible with 3kw loads.
That Drayton Wiser product is here:
https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/products/other-controls/electrical-heating/wiser-electrical-heat-switch
Originally they described it as being a smart switch capable of switching loads upto 16A (which would have worked with a 3kw Hot Water Immersion Element) but have since changed the design to be primarily used with Electric Radiators.
However they have also saddled this product with it's own built in Thermostat which seems sort of redundant as most electric radiators available now have integrated thermostats. Why they decided to do this is exceedingly odd and makes the product more complicated, presumably more expensive and essentially useless for any other potential use case, like we are discussing here.
PeterH I've had one running for a while now and its great, I use is for all my hot water heating now (might change in winter !)
Home Assistant add-on and custom component available, I started with the addon but it had lots of MQTT connect and disconnect and now use the custom component.
I have an HA automation that looks when I'm exporting more than 2kW and battery is full and turns the immersion on. I also run it at 2-5am and 1-4pm. It's not a constant load as once its up to 60degress, it comes on and off briefly to keep it there. Bear in mind the temp sensor is at the bottom of the tank so will show its cold when you use some hot water and its replaced with cold.
I’m diverting our spare solar power via a £37 timer ( with fuse) into my 10 kWh Sunamp heat battery for all our DHW. ( saves 600 litres of oil !!) In summer I just hit the 1 hour or. 2 hour boost button as soon as I see that the GE 9.5kwh electric battery is fully charged usually late morning. In winter I’ll set up the timer to run for 90 mins on overnight offpeak rates.
Admittedly I’m at home most of the time and am not on a Smart meter or any smart tariffs. I’m on economy 7 and so far this summer have hardly bought ANY grid electricity as our 4kw array can do up to 22kwh a day, plus house demand inc charging the Sunamp ( 210 litre equiv) is usually only about 10 -12kwh. Looking at getting an EV next year once I see a full year of data. Winter space heating is by oil boiler (750 litres annually now instead of 1350 litre though. It’s a Victorian house so not easy to insulate as it’s got solid floors and lathe and plaster walls. Our heating engineer hates heat pumps and has warned me off them.
Bill
Thanks Simon! Thanks Bill and Mr Dragon. Tesla T-Smart now installed and fully functional - only schoolboy error was not removing the O ring before fitting the gasket on the new immersion heater (needed to go on top of gasket) - just meant i had an hour of head scratching and then a reinstall. I've done some basic readings and it will heat up the tank 10 oC in about 15 minutes, and loses about 1oC per hour through insulation losses. My original plan was for it to top up the tank, temp wise in low tariff periods, and then let the Oil Boiler do the last yards. I'm now thinking I might just let the immersion get on with it, and measure the power usage. As Bill above - Our oil tank gets filled about 5 times a year £2800 last year - if I can reliably and cost efficiently get the water heated, then its just the space heating (radiators) to get sorted.
What Simon is doing with HA - ive found an old laptop and will dive into the world of HA to try the same!
Peter