I read today that from June this year, all new car chargers must be installed with their own discrete meter. If you are prevaricating - act now as it seems obvious to me that there will be additional taxation on energy used to charge cars.
wilfleek as this an online article? Could you link it please.
This is all from memory but thought it was just that they had to now tell the user how much power they had used via the charger, which most do anyway.
Unless it's MID approved & locked down I can't see how accuracy or security can be guaranteed and therefore it would be of little use for taxation purposes (isn't this why they are mulling road pricing now instead?)
We will see I guess - theres always the 3 pin charger or just Aliexpress...
hoggy Are you referring to cost per mile road use? I am interested in that as I do 50 - 60 miles daily. But personally I think they should tax bicycles and horses too especially as they have top priority on the roads 🙊
THALL yes that's what I was getting at. Not keen on it but I understand the reasons with loss of road tax from 0 emission vehicles.
(Unless they do similar to now where CO2 emissions are replaced with m/kwh efficiency or something they are a bit stuck really.)
I & others would be unfairly penalised with the EV meter method given I charge from solar a lot at weekends- taxing that energy would be a bit of a p!ss take.
THALL https://www.abd.org.uk/new-law-means-road-pricing-is-unjustified/#:~:text=All%20home%20installed%20electric%20vehicle,higher%20rate%20than%20domestic%20electricity.
This approach is very attractive to politicians as the cost of installation falls upon the users, and the cost of administration upon the energy companies. Unlike road pricing.
Alos, the limitations of (especially local) distribution grids can be overcome by simply stopping the charge via the meter. Mass take-up of BEVs cannot be supported by current distribution networks IMHO.
wilfleek Is that article for real? Under the new regulation the government could drain my EV battery back into the grid?
As far as I can see, the legislation that is referenced in that article (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/1467/contents/made) doesn't say that at all. It's saying that from June 2022 you cannot buy/sell a charger which is not 'smart'. So any home charger needs to be able track it's own energy usage and make it available to the user over a communications network (i.e. WiFi). This has been the case to claim the charger installation grant for some time it will just mean that 'dumb' chargers will cease to be legal to sell/buy.
You also might want to read this about the 'Alliance of British Drivers'!
Wow ok.
To be fair the powers that be have had the ability to knock your Smart EV charger off the network for a few years (Ohmes T&Cs 2 years ago for example have a clause that states they could stop your charge at the request of National Grid to stop a complete area blackout)
Smart meters also have the ability to disconnect the supply although the legal implications of cutting power to someone on some sort of life support at home unannounced has meant that it is yet to be used.
But at least I get a fancy bill from it I guess with usage every half hour!
I think a lot of it is driven by grid load demands, having some level of control over EVs both charge and discharge has the advantage of getting the most from the available power in the grid.
As EV adoption becomes more commonplace by those who don't inhabit the likes of this forum improvements in controls will be required. Joe Bloggs is likely to plug in when they get home from work and the car will just start charging - it's designed to prevent this.
I did read there would be an option to override this at a user level, shift workers, short notice travel etc.
As for EVs supporting grid usage control for that has to be pulled from the grid end to be effective if it's going to be used to replace aspects of large scale generation.
Little doubt it'll be used to tax EV fills, you'll ultimately pay more for less efficient EVs and it's a far simpler tax application than trying to do it per mile with GPS trackers etc.
Worst case unplug for the peak hours!
I saw the new Shell EV charging stations are charging £2.49 fee to use the rapid 150kw+ chargers then 49p per kwh. I'm sure it wont be long before we do see high costing electric for EV's. But thankfully a lot of us generate our own. I am actually looking to see if I can add 4kw instead of 2.4kw by mixing panels. I see some 495w panels in stock which are not that much bigger in size than the 300w I was getting. It will look slightly odd but not the end of the world! That would give me a nice 10.9kw to charge the car with!
judgepd a quick read of the regulation leads me to conclude that the only way to achieve the requirements is with a separate smart meter, or same built into the charger. Either way, I think my comments stand?
I would like the option of a faster charger at home - it's fine waiting around for a 7kW system to do its thing, but if I want a responsive 100kWh car battery to earn cash discharging in the evening and recharging over night, 7kW isn't going to be enough. So a dedicated meter and in fact 3-phase would be great.
Centrica have just spent a load in our area upgrading the gas network. I've no idea why really - it's obviously the electric wiring that needs the work.
jkazer Schneider are already investigating and investing in 3phase for homes. It’s something that has to be rolled out as you say because without it it won’t work.
Of course everyone will say hydrogen is the way forward. It really isn’t unless they can reduce the energy to produce it - but you can’t break physics so it’s never ever going to be more than 50% efficient and that’s with no losses. It will be viable for trucks etc but not really for cars. Even some busses around us are 100% electric.
judgepd who would have a dumb charger? As it stands you can’t claim the £350 grant if your charger isn’t ‘smart’ AFAIK.
The grant is ending in March.
For the record, it cost us nearly £4,000 to get a new 3-phase connection installed - including 5m trench, meter box installed, 3-phase cable connected up. Negligible cost difference for single-phase. Most of the cost of course was for the DNO paperwork and hole in the pavement to get at the main street cable.
Who knows if/when the DNO will voluntarily or via legislation do upgrades themselves...
wilfleek I read today that from June this year, all new car chargers must be installed with their own discrete meter.
Fake news
jkazer That is a lot cheaper than my electrician estimated for my home. When I asked about how I could get a 3-phase for the 22kw zappi he instantly laughed and said contact the local DNO and would cost around £10000. I am in a fairly new build, just over 2 years old. Not that I would even entertain £4k though, just pointing out cheaper than I was told it would be.
THALL Wow that's a lot... our DNO is UK Power Networks - presumably it varies a lot by DNO and by situation...?
We did have a reasonable reason for getting a new connection.
jkazer Could well be local related. How good the current infrastructure is etc.
wilfleek I don't think that NOT having a charger will make a difference if this is about tax.
They'll retrospectively have you or the DNOs install them. Taxation of EVs road usage is definitely coming whatever we do.
browellm I don't think it is fake news. I've read a number of articles from the EV community that show a number of possible strategies and this one is up there. However this is only good for EV's it doesn't cover ICE or Hybrids.
Applying a tax at public chargers is definitely on the cards so why not home chargers were there is a huge amount of charging going on.
Another possible strategies is 'compulsorily' fitting of a black box (or car manufacturers fitting them) to show what mileage you're doing. Expanding that further linking it to some form of uplink via Home wifi, smart meters, GPS or the mobile network and then you get a bill. This'll cover all cars. Vehicle Miles Tax (VMT) is already a thing in many countries.
Taxes and death are givens! 😆
yandards Octopus Intelligent addresses this. You sign up, the system (limited car & chargers at the mo) decides when to charge your vehicle based upon your input for amount needed and time you are leaving. It then charges the vehicle at the best time for the grid.
The title of this thread has been evidenced (if you actually read the regulations) to not be true.
Regardless of any other taxation methods that might be coming, from June this year a domestic EV charger does not need to be installed with it's own meter.
judgepd I agree it's definitely not mandated at the moment. But it is under discussion along with a number of other tax raising scenarios to get EVs paying some form of use tax whether VMT or power usage.
Exactly. Always search out and read the legislation, especially when commentary is sourced from an unreliable or biased source (as the Alliance of British Drivers most certainly is).
A propos of this subject:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/160317/n-a---smart-meter
wilfleek So on this subject I have seen articles in the Express and the Times this week that cars that have V2G could or will be used in the future to balance the grid if needed.
Intelligent Octopus?
THALL octopus powerloop
Even if the fit separate meters for EV wallbox chargers what's to stop you using a granny charger instead?
There will be a cost point where the tax is more than using a SVR tariff Vs Go and they can't control granny chargers.
Another reason I think the road tax side will end up being mileage based from a black box. They can also run peaktime tariffs, different rates for different aspects of the road network etc.
Based on some of the price per mile models the papers have posted lately my road tax would be around £700 per year. Some the articles suggested it would also apply to old and new vehicles! Which would be a massive money maker for the government and penalise those who live a distance from their work. Like me, we moved 12 months to be more rural. But not rural enough for any kind of exception to the miles. I dunno, we'll see.
THALL I can't see it changing until 2030 when EVs are the only choice for new at that point.
Anything earlier will discourage adoption and there is still significant income from the ICE side of taxation at that point too.
There might be a low rate of road tax introduced before then as they have already tweaked the hybrid rules but a lot of income from taxation now comes in the form of higher rates for cars over £40k regardless of powertrain type.
Yes fuel duty revenue will come down too so there might be a tipping point for a £30 road tax charge. I wouldn't mind paying it if they actually used it to fix the potholes or even if it goes into a public EV charger network.
I am on the Powerloop trial. Between 4pm and 7pm, they suck my car electric for the grid as an export. Then I get a very nice rate between around midnight and 6am, so the car is ready to go next morning. I do think this is a good way to help balance the grid.