Hello Everyone,
We've been monitoring the ongoing developments with one of our former "platinum" installers First4Solar/Tanrec.
Please see attached our official statement regarding the issue, as well as our plans to support all those affected.
A nice gesture which will undoubtedly benefit GE in the future. nice one George.
I guess I was one of the lucky ones actually having my battery only install completed by f4s 2 months back.
I do have one related question for people in my situation who now have no installer in case of issue. I understand the process for any issues is that Givenergy require the installer to pay a deposit before a Giv engineer will attend. How does that work now my installer has gone bust?
GeorgeRawding Maybe worth posting this in the FB group Last4Solar too. Lots of upset innocent customers in there too
Thank you. Please can we have some guidance for those who had installation completed but now no installer to contact for support if/when required?
Nice!
P3tro We partially dodged a bullet in that F4S eventually installed our gear, albeit not the promised retrofit of a gen 2 inverter and an Eddi we paid for. Also no electrical cert. However we do have a working system and the crew they used on site were good - from the south of the country which was a surprise. We terminated the contract several days ago and have found a new supplier who has been very proactive so far. We've already switched the GE account to them and they are coming this week to complete the works F4S didn't do. This will also include an audit and re-certification of the electrical work. We have a section 75 claim in to cover the additional costs, including lack of warranty cover.
sponev oh wow, I’m only now finding out what they didn’t do. Don’t think I’ve had the certification. I’m also now concerned about the warranty cover. I’ll seek advice from the Facebook group. Thanks for sharing your experience. You’ve showed me what I’m missing!
P3tro ditto the query....
Where do we go now if there is an issue with GE Equipment installed by F4S. We are about 1 year post installation.
dragon2905 The manufacturer warranty will apply. So GE will cover their equipment, at least that would be usual. However the non GE kit, install etc will no longer have the warranty F4S promised in their contract and it looks like HIES might be a waste of time too. We've estimated a value of these lost warranties and included them in our section 75 claim. We've included for all the likely costs of a warranty visit, including scaffolding etc. It's a lot of cash and the bank will struggle to argue it, but no doubt they'll try. More fun and games ahead no doubt.
My experience with HIES and a different installer was at best what you might generously describe as underwhelming…
This is a good idea and gesture from Givenergy to try and alleviate the problems with the company failing. I find it hard to understand though how a company that had a reasonable reputation a while ago fails in an industry with customers queueing up to buy.
I am so pleased I was warned off F4S 2 years ago on a FB rant. Well done GE for this sterling response. Commiserations to those impacted by this company.
killythebid Not sure about the reasonable reputation. When I 1st started looking a battery system in Summer 2021 there was a number of complaints on FB about them. Poor communication, workmanship and responses to issues. So I swerved them and went with iVoltz after a visit to fully charged.
I too nearly went with them 3 years back. They got a bit grumpy when I mentioned I was getting several quotes rather than just accepting theirs straight away.
Got to the point where they wouldn’t leave me alone so was never going to use them after that. I’m quite happy with my “inferior” JA Panels anyway!
They supplied my system back in December 2021. I used them because they came across very well. The installers they used were subcontractors and I’ve since discovered a few things that weren’t done right. Most I’ve sorted myself but one is outstanding and I doubt will get sorted now. I only emailed them about it a week or so ago. Not had a response. I have spoken to Dan one of the directors several times and always had a positive response from him - though often the follow up was slow.
Sadly it is the Wild Wild West out there for both Solar and EV Charger installers.
We did our due diligence on F4Solar looking into their company & accounts and saw that they had already folded one company previously. We decided to go ahead though as we were paying a deposit by Credit Card so knew we would get Section 75 protection on the entire process going forward. In all honesty though nearly every company we looked into had only a few employees listed, had been in business only a couple of years or their turnover was incredibly low (indicating not that many installations on the books)
Despite this we experienced massive delays, excuses, partial installs, temporary equipment installs. Talking to the various electricians, roofers etc it soon became quite apparent that they had all the organizational skills of dyslexics organizing a spelling B (apologies to dyslexics!) and we started to wonder if it was a ponzy scheme where the newest customers were effectively paying for the older customers installations to keep the company and cash flow rolling. It would appear that this wasn't that far from the truth.....
Reminds me of the early days of Double Glazing Salesmen (which I can just recall).
HIES are, mostly, about as much use as a chocolate toothbrush.
The whole 120 day deposit guarantee scheme is not worth the paper it is written on as with the equipment shortages very few installs would take place within 120 days. Heck it can take 90 days just to get DNO approval......
What should happen is that on day 119 if your installation has not commenced then they should automatically refund the deposit paid by the consumer to the consumer and debit the installer's account. What tended to happen was that day 120 passed and HIES are happy cos they got their piece of the pie - once for being HIES registered (which is paid for) and once for the deposit scheme (which they also got paid for) and even better now they are off the hook.....
The HIES Insurance Backed Guarantee (IBG) is also one of those things that the installer has to specifically pay HIES for. What should happen is that if you are a member of HIES and have paid to use their processes, as F4S did, it should automatically deduct the amount necessary from the deposit (perhaps necessitating an increase upfront payment) to take out the IBG and hold that money until the installation is completed. Then issue the IBG directly to the consumer.
HIES suffers the same as all schemes that exists only on payments from their subscribers (Gas Safe, NICEIC etc etc etc). It only works where everything is going well. They absolutely do not want to kick their members out of the scheme as they would see subscriptions, ie. income, reduced. When it all goes terribly wrong, such as someone being injured or killed, due to the incompetence of a particular 'certified' member, it triggers some sort of introspection which achieves absolutely nothing cos they still remain dependent on subscription payments and more subs = more money.
For the Solar/Renewable industry as a whole there needs to be an external (I hesitate to say Government run), legal escrow framework system in place that releases payments to the installers when milestones are achieved.
Only when this happens will the dangers of being conned, scammed or defrauded be mitigated
@TheDragon (GivEnergy) I have seen a few posts on the Last4Solar facebook page about Extended Warranties.
Will GE assist those people who have fallen foul of the F4S folding and permit exceptions to the 60 day rule? Of course where they can provide evidence that it was purchased and not issued or was supposed to be part of their package?
That would help them where they have to approach a different wholesaler to purchase the warranty extension.
dragon2905 I cannot answer that, as i dont know.
I would email support to get a formal response
I knew nothing about the warranty extension till long after install, (different installer) it seems odd that the offer is only available if teh installer tells you, I would have thought GE would offer it direct after install.
dragon2905 I was probably one of those posters - I asked Dan on the Givenergy statement post but unfortunately haven't received a reply.
Hi
@GeorgeRawding Can i sugges that this post in pinned to the top of the forum board, and also prominetly placed on your website homepage and your facebook channels.
The offer made by GE is incredibly admirable (and affirms my decision to buy your kit), but personally i think this community forum is not a obvious place for propsective customers left in the lurch to see it. Many users likely won;t find this fourm until after they have had a sucessful installation completed.
sponev Thanks for your post.
I've been left in a similar situation (fortunately) with a working install but with no promised retrofit of the Gen 2 inverter that i specifically requested and paid for. I''m also concerned about my warranty as well now.
Can i ask how you done your section 75 claim and what you have put in for?
e.g cost for new gen 2 inverter, cost for installation, cost for extended warranty?
Are you using quotes from your new supplier?
cheers
dp100 I got a quote simply to complete what F4S didn't do including the gen 2 inverter and fitting an Eddi that I paid for. It's actually going in today and the new team have been great.
On top of that they're doing an inspection and signing the work off as I've been unable to get the electrical cert from F4S.
So all of the above is going in the section 75 claim plus the extended warranty for the inverter and a substantial sum to cover missing warranty for the rest of the installation. I guess the bank will argue but they'll struggle to win it as everything I've claimed is valid. I've made it clear that I haven't claimed for lots of wasted time but that I reserve the right to submit a supplementary claim if they start disputing figures. Let's see what happens next!
First indication from today's inspection is that F4S's subbies actually did a good job which is a relief. I think we dropped lucky there.
sponev In almost the same place with f4s. How did you come to an estimate for the 8 years missing support ?
justpassing Good question and it's not a definite. I assumed two warranty visits over the period and noting the 25 year warranty on the panels. I included scaffolding at £1200 for each visit plus labour. You may be lucky and it's trouble free but equally you may be unlucky and need lots of future support. I figured two visits over the warranty period would be reasonable. I couldn't find any supporting data unfortunately, however, a neighbour who's had solar for ten years has had two visits needing scaffolding in that time period. Hardly statistically valid, but I had to start somewhere.
sponev Basically looking at getting your whole installation for nothing 😃
Ra well if they pay what I've claimed I'll recover what I've lost and some in the bank to cover lost warranty. I won't be "quids in" for sure. Indeed if I factored in the wasted time spent with F4S it would be a much more realistic claim but they'd just tell me to go forth.
So having sought feedback from really helpful folks on the Facebook group, it looks like I should have a 10 year warranty instead of the standard 5 for the inverter. I've no clue how I go about claiming for this against section 25.
I emailed GivEnergy yesterday, so I'm hoping to hear back from them to see what their position is with my situation (no certificates or documentation outside of HEIS certificate). Any advice here would also be appreciated.
Something like this
So your resolutions should be:
1) Dig out your written evidence showing that you did in fact pay F4S for a warranty extension
2) Contact GE to find out if there is simply a delay in this being applied.
IF still within 60 days
3) purchase your warranty extension from an alternative source (assuming you still want to extend the warranty)
IF OUTSIDE 60 DAYS
4) Contact GE to see if they will allow an extension to the 60 day rule. I would submit your written evidence to them as proof with your query.
IF PAID FOR WITH CREDIT CARD/VISA DEBIT (within timescale)
5) If you paid F4S for any of your installation with Credit Card (or VISA Debit) apply for a section 75 refund of the cost of purchasing a replacement Warranty Extension
IF PAID WITH ANY OTHER METHOD
6) Pay your money out of pocket and raise a Small Claims Court for breach of contract to the value that you paid.
Have they actually stopped trading? I thought that it was just an issue of failing customer service. We had F4S install our system and had our fair share of after-sales issues but the actual install seems fine.
I'd be looking at a section 75 claim if they had gone bust but to get that through surely they have to actually fail to deliver something first? (i.e. put in a warranty claim and they don't accept it).
Also, it would just be the workmanship warranty I'd assume as each equipment warranty would be direct with the manufacturer wouldn't it?
milkycgs Unfortunately they've failed on multiple levels and to varying degrees, including issues which would immediately put them in breach of contract. For us, some kit wasn't delivered and numerous requests for updates and visits went unanswered. So we moved on and submitted a claim to cover our losses.
milkycgs Same here, install seems "all right" eventually. Worth checking you have all the documentation you need / expected. It seem common that they have not extended the Inverter warranty to the full 10 years. This needs to be done through the wholesaler, and shoul dbe done by the installer. Givenergy will only accept the "upgrade" within 60 days of install. dragon2905 So you need f4s to do it, or do it yourself. They told me for 54 days it was being sorted, ended up doing it myself.
Also seems common not to have received an EIC for the electrical work, which is mandatory, and you will need it to sell or rent your house. That should also be provided as a check on the day of install. Like the MCS certificate none of these things can be retrofitted if missed by the installer.
sponev Ah gotcha. Yeah seems we were at least lucky enough to get ours installed (on the 3rd attempt due to them cancelling twice).
justpassing Good shout on the certificate. I'll dig out my paperwork to check I haven't overlooked it. If they haven't provided one then unless they've got a record of it, getting that could be the basis of a claim I suppose as it should have been done during install.
milkycgs we ordered and paid for a gen 2 inverter and an Eddi - neither delivered although they did get us going with a gen 1 after lots of chasing and wasted time. No electrical cert, no wiring diagram, no shutdown procedure, incorrect MCBs etc. We chases numerous times, no answer so we moved on. All if those issues are or soon will be resolved by another, decent supplier. Fortunately the core of the original installation was good and so the remediation has been manageable. Still waiting on the section 75 claim however.
sponev
Hi Sponev,
Would you be able to give us an update on how your Section 75 claim has got on, to cover your claim for a retrofitted Gen 2 inverter, installation, 2x warranty visits etc? Can i also ask which bank/credit card you are claiming against please?
Thanks
Darren
dp100 Sure. 18 days ago we got a text from Barclays saying they were still investigating and giving themselves another month. No further details and nothing since. Quite complex but their lack of comms is appalling. I'll give it another week and chase them, perhaps with a pleasant reminder of their legal obligations and the financial ombudsmen. My guess is that they're trying to work out how to minimise the warranty valuation in the claim but let's see.
Similar timescales here from Nationwide CC.
Swift acknowledgement, with a fairly firm " Don't call us, We will call you" rider.
Nothing since.
justpassing I'm possibly being too cynical but it will be interesting to see how hard they try to wriggle out of paying!
It’s all gone very quiet regarding GivEnergy pledge of help to affected F4S customers. Are we just having to wait and hear back?
I did email the suggested mailbox
Has anyone who has been installed actually received a copy of an Insurance Backed Guarantee certificate from either HIES or First4Solar?
ChrisYork I received a certificate from hies yeah, although not sure what good it does me? It states 2 year insurance from Safeworld.
Is this some sort of cover in case my givenergy kit fails due to something F4S did wrong?
Giant it is supposed to replace ( by insurance ) costs that your installer would have bourne, service you would have received that were due to the installers workmanship. This only comes into play when the installer goes it of business. If you have an issue ( somethings not working) then contact HEIS, they are supposed to help resolve. If the inverter or battery actually fails, that would not be the installers fault, and you have to rely on the manufacturers guarantee. However, don’t take my word for it, call HEIS.
So in theory for the first 2 years any remedial work F4S would have covered for 10 years.
Giant It is cover for Faulty Workmanship ONLY for 2 years.
dragon2905 there's the deposit or staged payment insurance part as well if you use those. Safeworld will either return your deposit or arrange for a supplier to complete the works based on the contract value the original supplier quoted.
An option for those who maybe paid by debit card
Cdent the Deposit/Staged Payments is for 120 days only and a maximum of 25% or £5k.
Lots of typical "cover their own arse" conditions in the cover
Deposits and staged payments are covered up to a maximum of 25% of the contract value, or £5,000 whichever is the lesser.
Deposit or staged payments are covered as set out below up to a maximum of 25% of the contract value or £5,000, whichever is the lesser from the commencement of cover date on the certificate of cover for the 120 day period of cover.
Where we complete the contract, you are required to pay the outstanding balance of the contract value to us for the work stated in your suppliers contract before the works begin. In some circumstances we will pay the deposit or staged
payment (subject to the maximum sum insured) to you instead of arranging for the completion of the installation. The circumstances are:
• Where we cannot arrange for the completion of the installation by an approved installer;
• Where our costs would exceed the repayment of the deposit or staged payment or the maximum sum insured.
The 2 Year warranty is for Faulty Workmanship only. So for example doesn't cover you if a panel fails (this would be covered by the Panel Warranty) but you would be liable for the cost of scaffolding and electrician/roofer to change panel. It will only cover you for the wiring installation, or roof mounting leaking etc
An option for those who maybe paid by debit card
These are 120 days from initial payment OR 120 days from future contract date (eg installed in the future). There is a maximum time limit on debit card charge backs of 540days.
(this runs for 6 years in England & Wales = to the statutory limitation) and covers you for ALL the money you have paid regardless of whether it was paid by cash, BACS, Direct Debit, Transfer. As long as you paid some of it on Credit Card and the amount paid was over £100 total.
dragon2905 yep, it's worth looking into for those who have it and are in the 120 days. Not just faulty workmanship
Has anyone had any steer from Givenergy whether they will directly deal with consumers on any future warranty claims or whether the system must be 'adopted' by another Giv approved installer?
I've asked the question but not heard back yet. I didn't get any paperwork following my First4Solar install of an AC3 and need to decide whether to get an EICR or whether I need to go a more expensive route of somebody taking on the system and liability (if they're willing!).
Chriswiseman I'm in a similar position and elected to get an EICR and an independent check. I couldn't find anyone to adopt the system without a complete strip back and effectively start again. The company who did the checks and also retrofitted a gen 2 inverter, will warrant that but nothing else. I've submitted a section 75 claim to cover the extra I spent and also a sensible sum to make up for having no warranty on wiring etc. I'm waiting on a decision - now approaching 2 months in.
I also took advice on the other GE gear and they would have to uphold the manufacturer warranty, even if they haven't actually confirmed that.
As sponev said its a nightmare. Companies just don't want the hassle or liability.
Get a quote to have a full inspection & testing of the Solar PV Installation (so a EICR limited to the solar stuff).
You should, but 99% certain you don't, have these documents from Tanrec Ltd T/A First 4 Solar
https://mcscertified.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/MCS-Installation-Handover-Checklist-Solar-PV.pdf
It's a shame that we haven't Officially heard more from GE about how they are going to help since the 9th May 2023.
sponev I saw your section 75 claim was with Barclays. I've been on the phone to them today and the person I spoke to said there is a backlog they're working through (I think they said since June but don't quote me on that!). Hope this helps explain the delays in your case.
It's been a while since I've been able to commit any time to this situation but I've been looking into it again today. I posted in the Facebook group Last 4 Solar back in May about it and I did get some advice there too.
I spoke to Andrew and GivEnergy support who was very helpful on a few questions I had, some of which weren't just about the First4Solar situation. It turns out the installers didnt submit much information about my system but enough to get it commissioned. Apparently they didnt supply any photos, which I didnt know they needed to do (I suppose I wouldnt know since it's an expectation of GivEnergy to the installer). The good news is though that Andrew at GE support looked at my system (remotely) and said things looked like the system was operating as expected (short of SOC or other firmware issues, of course).
I'm having a hard time getting my system certified. I've got a local company who I'm engaging with about this to see if they can help me with the DNO and/or EIC/G98/G99 certificate/forms.
I've started a section 75, which yeah I should have done sooner but my system was up and running and I'm struggling to get quotes for costs to remedy or certificate the system.... then other things in life/work came up. I haven't had any response from GivEnergy since my email following the posting of this topic on the forum. I'll follow up when I send the photos. Wondered if anyone else has had any contact about extended warranty in particular?
P3tro I've just had my section 75 claim paid. I only asked for the additional costs I incurred, which were getting the eic from the original sub contracted installer, and the 10 year inverter upgrade. The 10 year upgraded you can not buy direct from givenergy, but you can buy through a wholesaler likd midsummer ( other wholesalers are available .... :-). ). I would ask givenergy if in the circumstances hey would waive their requirement for the inverter warranty to be applied for within 60 days of commissioning. Good luck.
P3tro Thanks for the update. They have offered a sum of money but they're evading the value of the warranty and not comitting to anything going forward should anything go wrong. I've knocked back the initial offer and await a response. They're basically trying to get away with the bare minimum.
justpassing I spoke to GE a month or so back about honouring the 10 year warranty for the inverter. They said they haven't decided but they did waive the need for me to apply for it within 60 days. I'll chase up again next week and hopefully we'll hear something positive.
I had a 9.5kWh AC coupled battery installed by First 4 Solar last September. It was a lot of hassle to get the system fitted, but the installation went well and it's worked perfectly so I considered myself lucky.
I have a 4kW solar installation from 2012 that qualifies for the maximum FIT rate. My FIT supplier are now moving to metered export readings and I had to inform them of the battery installation. They now need some documentation on the battery which should be signed off by the installer. Clearly this isn't happening and I didn't get any documentation from First 4 Solar at the time.
My FIT payments are now on hold until I can send them the documentation. Any suggestions on how I can go about getting this?
Thanks
andydsmith what kind of documentation? Certification? Technical specs?
sponev
At Sponev.
May i ask where you are upto with your Section75 claim.
I decided to let the dust settle re the administration process and other things at work/home pass before starting on this, and i'm just starting to collate notes.
I've just contacted GE again for their stance as i've heard nothing since emailing their F4S Losses emails back in May.
I'm going to contact a couple of installers on the official for quotes for a inverter upgrade and check of my current installation/wiring plus extra (for future warranty issues and lost chance of buying the 10year GE extension).
Thanks in advance
darren
dp100 Nothing more from GE regarding honouring the 10 year warranty - so no change from my post above. Regarding the S75 claim, Barclays offered to cover the price of the gen 1 to gen 2 upgrade and the inspection for an EIC. However that EIC only covers the wiring at ground level as no contractor is willing to look at the panels and roof work as they can't formally take it on under MCS anyway. I've explained it twice now to Barclays but they won't listen - stone walling I suspect. They also aren't entertaining anything to do with the 10 year workmanship warranty in the F4S contact - they say they will only entertain "standard" warranty terms although they won't elaborate on that - again obfuscating and stone walling.
So I've pushed it back again on the basis that they need to either entertain a full system replacement so I have confidence in what's on the roof, or honour the ten year warranty. That was 2 weeks ago. They also refuse to correspond via email, insisting on letters - again it seems like a deliberate ploy to frustrate the process. The cash is almost incidental here, for me it's more about a big institution attempting to wriggle out of their obligations. I'll keep pushing but I want some form of compromise as a minimum. Rant over 🙂
sponev
Hi Spoonev.
Thanks kindly for the detailed update - it's super useful for myself and many others in the same situation.
I think your 'rant' is more than justified and i'm sorry to hear than your bank has messed you around to this extent, especially as this is as much as a 'safety of your family' issue as much of a financial one.
As soon as i get a response from G.E about their current position (wrt to F4S customers) which will give me a steer on the best way to address my inverter upgrade, i'll start the process with my bank (Natwest) and will report back on my progress.
Personally, i had not considered the 'full replacement' option as my panels have been in 1 year and have worked well, and i didn't think there is much to go wrong with the simple string of series panel string wiring. However, your point about having the rest of the electrics checked out has sparked a thought, especially when considering some of the simple errors the rushed F4S sparkies did on my install (non functional connection on a DC isolator for string 2, CT clamp in wrong position, Solar gen meter showing reverse figures..) PLUS after seeing a photo posted on a Facebook solar forums showing a burnt out solar gen meter (the same model fitted by F4S) due to poor tail fitting. I also definitely want to follow your example re the warranty situation.
As i have a working system, i'm okay with the okay of protracted negotiations with my bank and the ombudsmen if needs be.
Thanks again, and best of luck!
Darren
dp100 I'm similar in that I have a working system which may well be OK in all aspects. To a lay person, the installation team were good but subsequently we heard about non-qualified electricians being used etc. So we actually don't know. One of the biggest fire risks is apparently the on-roof connectors which have to be crimped and done diligently - I just have to hope that this has been done properly but I can't be certain. Hence why I need something a bit more definite than the waffle Barclays have spouted so far. I guess I'd be happy if they honoured the longer warranty terms and then at least I have something to fall back on in the event of problems. But so far they are only offering a bare minimum in my opinion. Good luck with your claim.
P3tro Sorry, I didn't notice your reply at the time. They were asking for a schematic of the installation and also wanted a declaration form signed by me and the installer. I think they're OK with the information that I've been able to send them, but they've still not taken my account off hold.