Exporting to grid but no payment with no agreement seems unfair

So not strictly about Givenergy products but a topic that others must've thought about. I had my system commissioned back in May and have been exporting a significant amount back to the grid. However, I'm waiting for my DNO approval and so I've been told that until that happens, they'll happily take my export and charge others for it but will pay me nothing. I've been told it could take months for the approval to come through and, if they don't have to pay for it, they have no incentive to speed up the process. I'm thinking about submitting a bill for the export anyways or, at the very least, filing a complaint but not exactly sure where to start. Has anyone else contemplated this or started it and succeeded or failed?

KamenMacKay I was originally told this via Octopus and exported 600+kWh before they "went live" with my export MPAN, however they then sent me a credit for the time I'd been waiting for everything to be set up. Just push it with your supplier once it's all sorted

Same as above, Octopus were kind enough to back date my export credit. However, for the most part they do not do it. It almost seems to be pure luck and who you get through to on the phone at the time of requesting/raising this.

There's something in legislation about settlement/balancing. Mentioned elsewhere on here I think.

Basically every unit on the grid has to be accounted for. So if your smart meter is currently able to measure the export, you must get paid for it (from the point the meter was installed) - otherwise that principle is broken.

Fingers crossed!

I'm really interested to hear this - my system was installed in February and I have to wait until 15th August for SSE to come and inspect it before they will send my DNO approval. Originally I called Octopus about this but was told there was nothing they could do. Do I need to formally register the issue with them or anything?

Davies26 that just bad luck with SSE, you can not have any export until you get your DNO certificate so i am not sure how this will work.

THALL what tariff did they use to pay you back? was it the standard SEG rates?

I was with Octo and I took manual readings of my meter the day my PV went live and just kept reminding them how much I had exported and they did credit me after a few months.

Getting a SEG agreement is a minefield for sure. I am having to go through the painful process now as I had my installation in April this year. I did not have a Smart Meter as I was previously told we could not have one at our address due to poor signal in the area. No one will even accept an application unless you have a Smart meter first. The compromise it seemed was to have a smart meter in "dumb" mode and call in the readings. It has taken a long time to get someone out to fit the meter but it was eventually fitted last Wednesday. The fitter tested and said the signal was fine and it would be able to work in smart mode. However, thus far the meter has not worked and is not working. The situation is not helped by the appalling customer service from E.on Next. Anyway, that aside we have now been able to apply for a SEG and it is in progress to get the export MPAN from the DNO so we await the answer.

The more positive aspect is that the Installer admin has been very helpful in making sure I had all the DNO permission statements for the G99 application and the like, requests for document copies were supplied by the return of email virtually straight away.

It is a long frustrating trail for sure and the story for us is only half over. It should not have to be this hard or take this long.

It took 30 months from installation to get my smart (dumb) meter to be smart.
All that time I just submitted manual readings every month but was not able to use any variable tariff as I could not get half hourly readings.
I just kept reminding them it was not my fault the meter was not working.
They kept visiting and changing both elec and gas meters every 3 months but made no differenece. I think the fix came when a new mast went up about 1-1/2 miles away, but Octo have now way of knowing what Arqiva are up to, and as consumers we have no contract with them so cannot moan at them.

It was installed by Octo, but the problem is not their making.
All meter companies send via the DCC which the government "organised" and the UK was split into regions. Capita own and run the DCC regulated by Ofwat. Capita then franchised out the operational side.
In the south the companies (Telefonica) uses GPS technology and seems to work.
In the north Arqiva decided to use RF technology (presumably cheaper) but not very good in hilly areas like the big strip of land called the Pennines and the Dales.

The term "smart" meter is really a con. As part of our install we had EDF (our energy provider) install a smart meter as per their requirements with half horly radings. But having gone through the sign up process they say we have to manually give them readings every six months as they are unable to read export figures remotely..they kept that hidden. But, the Scottish power lot are up front and tell you that you need to submit readings every 6 months.

SteveCook

You mean FSM in the south and in areas where mobile coverage isn’t up to snuff for many people. The RF comms was specifically designed to counter a lack of mobile comms.

SteveCook uses GPS technology

Sorry GSM
Too many TLAs!.............
Dont know what FSM is, all I know is up here it took 30 months and still very intermittent and home information display has never shown gas readings

Everyone’s experience is different.
For me all went quickly. I had solar & battery installed end May, I had to give my meter number to my installer so the could start the G99 approval process. My old electric meter went backwards for a about a week before I had a smart meter installed. At first it would not send any meter reading in but after a call the Edf they sent someone again and they fitted an aerial to the meter. All working now.
Last week I received the G99 approval (5 weeks) from my solar installer and now signed up and receiving money for the export.

Seems very variable. Ours was installed start of April and export started getting paid for three weeks later so pretty good.

deepanshus Ooo I would have to check, was a couple of years ago. Was either Go or Agile back then, id say Go so yes SEG tariff.

IanW Edf they sent someone again and they fitted an aerial to the meter. All working now.

I think you must be in the south on GSM. There is an aerial mod available to GSM meters, but not to RF meters.

I live in the Yorkshire Dales out in the sticks. Phone signal is good, but we are on Arqiva (RF) and meter signal is not good.

SteveCook Staffordshire so O2 - meter comms hub is Toshiba SKU2 (Cellular & Mesh)

Just to say that although it took a few weeks for Eon to sort out the SEG registration, they quickly credited us with our generation. They've since upped the SEG from 5.5p to 16.5p too, which is helpful.

This has some good descriptions
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

This is good about how to fit an aerial to an RF comms hub. When I suggested I would do this to mine so I could actually get a signal, Octo freaked out. I did not do it....
https://anengineersview.tech.blog/smets2-is-there-anybody-there/

So it seems the consensus is that if you're lucky, they'll do the right thing and compensate you for it because they're obliged by law but if they don't, all you have to do is chase them until they do.

KamenMacKay 4 months and counting, waiting for Octopus to connect to my meter. DCC is connected and displays through bright. Very much hoping that octopus will do the right thing !

justpassing
I was in a similar position to you .Plenty of emails from me to them and plenty of replies saying they were doings it.
After about 6 weeks I phoned up and got transferred to someone and in about 15mins all the data started streaming though to my Octopus web page.

SteveCook I've been in the complaints system with emails since week 8, but anythings worth a go, thanks Steve.

SteveCook
Fat fingers won it was meant to say GSM.

What I find so odd is I am pretty confident remember discussions about radio being used for weak signal areas and unsuitable locations. An external aerial requirement was discussed and I’m pretty certain it was agreed.

I can only imagine it beca an optional part of the spec and so some/mist smart meters comms units don’t do it. I bet if you kicked off enough thought they would find a material that supports a comms box with external aerial.

Be nice if there was a wired Ethernet version for hard to get signal commercial buildings.

We had our system installed in Oct 22 and still have no agreement with SSE (OVO). 605KW exported to date with no payment in sight, its shocking.

One option would be to ask your installer (or check the manual for your inverter) to restrict the export limit to something very low. The inverter will ramp up when load is detected.

i just got off the phone call with Octopus and they were very adamant (very politely, i must add) that it's clearly stated in the terms and conditions that they can only pay out once the export meter is registered with them. Before the export meter is registered, they have no control over the meter and can not backdate the payments. Seems like its a legal question, can they waive off their obligation to pay just because it's in the T&C.

deepanshus they should abide by the balancing and settlement code, which the latter part states that every kWh of energy should be accounted for, as in what their customers have consumed and what Octopus have "bought". So in theory they are breaking this code if they do not account for the energy

I hope you get the required result.
I exported 2.2MWh last year before I got export MPAN, best not to think too much ☺️

Out of spite I think after about 4-6 weeks I’d set the export limit to zero if possible. Have you considered a solar diverter to use he export to heat the hot water?

deepanshus they don't have an obligation to pay if the meter isn't registered to them. You would end up with people getting paid multiple times if suppliers agreed to this. I'm sure it's not great for you, but I'd suggest it's time to move on... life's too short.

stevelewis

I get this, at the same time there should be time limits on how long this takes to do. An obligation to pay after that time from an initial reading, but at their import rates would probably be enough to speed the process up.

The costs would need to be passed to the cause of the delay, but free electricity whilst there is delay is hardly an incentive to speed up.

stevelewis yeah Steve, no problem, i was just updating the status in case people have the same issue in future.

kram especially, when they have already given the G98/G99 or any other relevant certificate, DNO has already verified your installation schematics and know the products used, there should not be any delay in just getting an MPAN. Afterall, its just a number, it should get assigned along with the DNO's certificates. Maybe the rules will change when more people will convert to solar, which they will eventually.

You would hope with g99 it would be assigned upon confirmation of the install, because with a g99 they do know everything already.

An update: my export MPAN was issued a week ago so I'm now chasing after Octopus to pay me for what I exported before it was issued. So far, they are denying that they have to pay me so I'm chasing this up with Elexon who handles the Balancing and Settlement code as they can probably cite the procedure and laws I have to throw at Octopus to make this happen. I'll update this post as I go along.

This document from Elexon seems pretty clear on the issue https://bscdocs.elexon.co.uk/guidance-notes/microgeneration-and-the-balancing-and-settlement-code
The DNO’s really need to upgrade their systems though- why not issue the export MPAN with the G98/99/100 and then the customer can give the number to whichever supplier they choose.

I'm confused, Why would Octopus pay for something that they had not agreed to buy and for which, they received no benefit (it's not Octopus's wire that comes into the property, it's the DNO's)?

I complained to Octopus about how long it all took to get my export in place. I had emailed them several times but never got an answer, so I messaged them on twitter and they were quite responsive that way.

Think the formal complaint did get things moving. I had an existing FIT system that I had to give up the export payments for, I knew that and thought it would happen automatically, but Octopus said that until I did that with my FIT supplier (Eon) the export was stalled. Eon were pretty quick about it, I had to give an end meter reading for the FIT and a photo of the export meter reading, and sign a new FIT contract, but it all was done within a week.

I contacted UK Power Networks directly to find out what was happening about the export MPAN. They responded pretty quick, within 2 days by email, passed it to the export MPAN team, they got confused with my G99 submission as the most recent one had been for a second battery but once I told them the reference number of the prior solar+battery one I had the export MPAN that day.

Told Octopus all this and they got me on export about 2 days later. They did firstly say they couldn’t get half hourly export readings and so could only put me on the 15p fixed export rate. This was despite them receiving half hourly import readings from the same physical meter OK. They said it was a country-wide issue that the DNO’s were working on. But the day my export started it changed on the Octopus account screen to saying I was on flux export and the half hourly readings started coming through the next day.

I got £30 customer service goodwill gesture for the complaint. Nothing like the £ I should have had for all the free export, but at least it was something and at least my export is all working fine

@Dougm11 Yah, it seems pretty cut and dry to me from that document. I also got a reply from Elexon who basically said that the Balancing and Settlement code doesn't apply to micro-generators like us. Seems to me the big players and the DNO's then have a vested interest in dragging their feet on issuing export MPAN's as they're legally allowed to sell the 'spill' without compensating us until we're registered. You win some, you lose some so I guess we just have to swallow the 'loss' and move on with our day...

KamenMacKay

Like I said in another thread, set the export to zero until you have an MPAN should you feel that strongly.

I do agree it’s disgusting there isn’t a time limit 45 days say, with penalties and that they have to back pay anything exported after 5 working days at a higher rate.

TBH SEG is so poor that I’m disgusted at the government for not updating the rate to say 10p. At the 4p point I’d rather our neighbours car got a free charge.

also the reason cited is that they dont want duplicate payment, which i find very weird as this is the first MPAN, there has been no export before so it would be very straightforward to pay the exported usage backdated. on top of that the smart meter has full details of when and how much was exported, i.e. if they want to.

i guess as more and more people will take up solar, this will get highlighted and eventually it will change.

DNO should issue MPAN along with G** certificate.

SteveCook Almost 6 months to the day, but on octopus fixed outgoing 🙂. Now need to decide if having missed hf whole summer to switch to flux .....

justpassing
When they posted out the new Flux rates on 1st July it all stopped working.
They are coming on 7th September to do a power cycle (turn it off and on again).
If they fix it, I hope it does not break again on 1st October when new rates kick of!!!!

Its taken me an entire year to get active and working export metering and to be paid for it... the whole system is an utter joke.

Happy to bill you through the teeth for any inbound, not happy to pay out for any export - or making it as hard as possible. It should be set up as part of getting Solar added and enabled from the get go (especially if you get it via a well known energy supplier...) - I gave up on that route, didn't get anywhere with Bulb and have eventualyl got it set up via Octopus now we have a working SMETS2 meter.....

Not that we are scoring points but it took me about a year and a half to get a working SMETS2 meter. Maybe longer, I can’t remember it was going on for so long.

Short version:

• smart meter fitted, but never worked as a smart meter, it should have had an external aerial due to the low signal strength in our area
• replacement smart meter fitted but because the original wasn’t working as a smart meter, they thought I had a single rate meter not a twin, so the replacement was a single rate smart meter. Which did actually work
• I insisted on getting back to a twin or multi-rate smart meter as I knew I wanted to move to more intelligent tariffs
• no option aparently to reprogram my smart meter over the air, eventually told I would have to have it replaced
• single rate smart meter replaced with twin rate dumb non-smart meter
• twin rate dumb non-smart meter replaced with twin rate smart meter, with external arial, so does work

Getting export setup only took 2 months with Octopus, comparatively quick. Though they did tell me at the end that they could only get daily export readings from my meter not half hourly so they’d have to put me on the 15p fixed outgoing tariff, not flux. This is despite them already collecting half hourly import readings from the same physical meter !
But miraculously when my export started they were getting half hourly export readings and my tariff changed automatically to flux export.

All very strange

I finally managed to get on Flux export last Friday. It took a moan on their Facebook page to kick things into action (I've read about using Twitter, but didn't want to set up an account just for that purpose).

Since our install in May we've exported 1900kWh which isn't far short of our annual use of about 2400kWh. While I didn't expect to get export straight away, it's frustrating that it's taken so long and only after having a moan in public. I agree with the MPAN being provided at the time of DNO G98/99 process though as that caused a slight delay once I'd complained to them.

I can't see them backdating it, so will just have to accept we've wasted export.