Does PredBat work well with Intelligent Octopus?

I've not read much, but most seem to be using it with Agile. Does it work well with Intelligent?

I’m on Intelligent Octopus Go (was just Go until about 6 weeks ago). I started using predbat at about Xmas. I’m now a huge fan.

I got installed in Sep last year. But I exported more in January than I did in Sep&Oct&Nov&Dec in total, thanks to predbat.

PianSom Intelligent Go has fairly straightforward pricing. Presumably the thing that PredBat can do for you is maximise cycling of the battery, to get as much export as possible. Does it also exploit additional charging slots outside the normal cheap rate period? Presumably it has to co-ordinate to ensure that it doesn't discharge the battery while the car is actively charging, else the car will presumably consume it.

Do you use Outgoing Agile? Opportunities for getting more than 15p from that appear limited.

DD
It utilises Saving Sessions (automatically) and Power-ups (once informed manually).

My EV has been out of commission since I’ve been on IOG (though I have a Zappi) so no direct experience of charging that yet. I’m told predbat will utilise the other charging slots, and will play nicely with the car.

I use outgoing fixed at 15p - bit of a no-brainer

PianSom Ah, okay, I don't get any power-ups in my region, and savings sessions are sufficiently infrequent that I don't mind doing that manually.

DD
Here's a typical day from last week.

Charging+discharging to make some cash while on the overnight cheap rate. Top-up and some exporting when the sun was shining (actually a bit less than Solcast forecast). Then a dump of excess charge late in the evening to monetise unused charge before the cheap import started again. Base load most of the day, some evening cooking. Import cost £2.56, export income £2.04.

I guess I could have improved a bit on this if I had tried. Probably would have charged to a bit lower in the early morning. But that day (like pretty much every day) was with with zero input from me,

I've just run through setting it all up using the video guide, and while it appears to be installed, it doesn't appear to be running.

I'm not sure how it all hangs together, but is PredBat run by AppDaemon? I've set the apps directory to where PredBat is installed, but it seems to be pointing to /addon_configs/a0d7b954_appdaemon/apps rather than /homeassistant/appdaemon/apps

Any tips?

Yes, predbat is an AppDaemon app.

I'm no expert on current best-practise installation (been a Home Assistant + AppDaemon user for a long time, so know my way around my own system already), but the Predbat manual is very helpful. It is being made even better by @geoffreycoan who will probably be along shortly with some wise words of help.

PianSom Charging+discharging to make some cash while on the overnight cheap rate.

Yeah, I'm not really sure I want to do that - overnight is cheap because they already have plenty of power on the grid. Pushing more out when they're trying to get it consumed seems a bit hostile (though perfectly within T&C). You presumably have AIO if you are able to push/pull 6kW at a time. I'd have less power and capacity to play with. And car charging to get in the way...

Ok, I've got PredBat running now... I'm not sure what made it work. Lots of errors in the log that I need to work through now.

Wait you can charge and discharge at the same time?!

deanjesper Wait you can charge and discharge at the same time?!

No as the battery can only be doing one thing at once, but predbat can set charging and discharging in the same 30 minute slot (eg 15 mins of each) if the export price-losses is > import price+losses

WillC I'm not sure how it all hangs together, but is PredBat run by AppDaemon? I've set the apps directory to where PredBat is installed, but it seems to be pointing to /addon_configs/a0d7b954_appdaemon/apps rather than /homeassistant/appdaemon/apps

As @PianSom says, predbat is a python program that runs within appdaemon. You can either install appdaemon as an add-on directly and then predbat from HACS, or there's a combined appdaemon+predbat bundle add-on that has them both together.
(+ there are docker approaches as well)

Either way, the appdaemon gets installed in /addon_configs/xxxxx - it was a change introduced in an upgrade to appdaemon a couple of versions ago and there's a specific bit of the install instructions that covers how to keep predbat running if you have an older version of appdaemon (with the old pathnames) and then upgrade

But sounds like you are running OK now

I have no experience of Intelligent Go but from what I read in the docs, predbat won't discharge the battery when the car is charging, and if its a special low rate slot, predbat will prioritise that for charging the battery as well

geoffreycoan oh I see, that sounds a bit crazy, does it not affect the performance of the battery at all?

deanjesper Sorry I don’t follow your question.

Predbat will charge your battery based on a number of parameters, but cost being one of them, so low cost import periods. If you have intelligent go and octopus have deemed a 30 minute slot as being an extra ‘special rate’ slot so your car is being charged, then the battery is also being charged on the low rate as well.

You can reduce the amount of times your battery is being charged/discharged if you want through a number of levers such as battery metric which puts a virtual price on the cost of charging your battery.
But the battery is there to be used

geoffreycoan sorry I guess I’m asking if it harms the battery but if GivEnergy are providing a guarantee on it then I guess it’s fine?

deanjesper
The battery is there to be used. Using it will cause some degradation, but it is probably minimal.

Would you buy a brand new car and then make your family walk everywhere because you didn't want the car to suffer normal wear and tear?

Also, worth reading up on what the makers guarantee actually gives you.
AFAIK, it guarantees that the battery will have at 70% of capacity after 10 years. If you make a claim under the guarantee then you get a percentage off the costs of replacing it.

So, after 9 years, you only get 110% off the cost of replacing the battery.

Given that, IMHO, use the damn thing for all it's worth. It's there to earn it's keep, not to be molly-coddled.

Zakalwe I'd happily accept 110% 🤣

TX200

Dyslexic fingers...a terrible condition to suffer from in a man of my few years. :-)

Of course, I should have typed "10%"

that should barely be named a warranty.
I do hope there's a misunderstanding somewhere.
The product is sold with "10 years unlimited cycles warranty" but if it fails around the 10 year mark you only get around £100 for your £3000 pounds battery?

I think you would get £1000 off a £10,000 replacement by 2033.

dragos.balaban there are different schemes for different batteries

The table above is for the older 2.6, 5.2 and 8.2 batteries that have a limited number of cycles. You need to be doing 2 or more full charge/discharge cycles to breach the limits

The 9.5 and AIO came with a 10 year unlimited cycle warranty, which recently GivEnergy changed to 12 years but you have to pay £29 I think for a health check every x years.

I'm wondering whether the 9.5 is actually going to work below 70% capacity.

Sounds like a strange thing to say?

Well here's what the manufacturer's datasheet for the battery cells GE are using has to say on the matter -

"The battery life is limited. Customers should establish an effective tracking system to monitor and record the internal resistance and capacity of each battery during its life. The measurement method and calculation method of internal resistance and capacity need to be discussed and agreed between the customer and EVE Power Co., Ltd. When the internal resistance of the battery in use exceeds 150% of the initial internal resistance of the battery or the capacity is less than 70% of the nominal capacity, the battery should not to operate. Violation of this requirement will exempt EVE Power Co., Ltd. from its responsibility for product quality assurance in accordance with the product sales agreement and this specification."

Sound to me like GE have a choice - stop the battery working COMPLETELY once capacity hits 70% or operate the battery cells in a way not recommended by the manufacturer.....

Edit - also I think their new warranty "health checks" are because they can't actually track internal resistance/capacity by non-intrusive monitoring. That's just a hunch though.

geoffreycoan The table above is for the older 2.6, 5.2 and 8.2 batteries that have a limited number of cycles. You need to be doing 2 or more full charge/discharge cycles to breach the limits

I think that it also covered the 8.2 and 9.5 which had unlimited cycles. They just removed the 10MWh total throughput clause:

The compensation scheme matrix still applied.

geoffreycoan The 9.5 and AIO came with a 10 year unlimited cycle warranty, which recently GivEnergy changed to 12 years but you have to pay £29 I think for a health check every x years.

Worth remembering that the new warranty is not retrospective, so the old scheme still applies for those purchased previously.

dragos.balaban The product is sold with "10 years unlimited cycles warranty" but if it fails around the 10 year mark you only get around £100 for your £3000 pounds battery?

Not quite.
Having re-read the guarantee in more detail, they say that:

Goods presented for repair may be replaced by refurbished goods of the same
type rather than being repaired. Refurbished parts may be used to repair goods.
Refurbished parts which are of equivalent condition than the defective part is
guaranteed by supplier.
In the event products or replacement parts are not available in the market anymore,
or otherwise, the supplier at its discretion, may replace with an alternative product
with equivalent functions and performance or alternatively provide a refund on
the remaining annually depreciated value of the purchase price as per the method
detailed in the ‘Compensation Scheme below’.

As I read it, if they accept that the guarantee applies then they will try to repair the battery. If they cannot repair it then they may decide to replace it OR provide a refund based on the compensation scheme matrix.
If it fails in say year 9, then you get 10% off whatever the replacement cost is at the time. How much you paid for the original battery is irrelevant. So, assuming a replacement battery costs £3K, then you will get £300 towards the purchase price. If it costs £1K, then you get £100.

As with everything, the devil is in the small print. Just because I say that something is guaranteed it does not imply that I will replace it FOC if it fails. It just means that I guarantee certain recompense (over and above your statutory rights). My guarantee might be nothing more than giving you a half-eaten bag of pickled onion Monster Munch.

As with everything in life read the detail before signing on the dotted line.

Anyhoo, back on track.
I installed Predbat last night. It was a bit of a palaver as the videos aren't that easy to follow in places and don't always seems to reflect the installation that I chose (the combined AppDaemon & Predbat installation). It refused to work until I removed the script that was trying to read the inverter serial number and just typed it in. Hey presto, it sprang into life at that point. I am no coder, so this was less than easy to work out.

I now have a dashboard of complicated graphs, all of which are no doubt telling me something important... I can't see it doing any exporting, the Predbat plan looks exactly like it was under Intelligent Octopus, i.e. charge to 100% in the cheap period and then carry the house load during the day.

I probably need to learn how to tweak it. I also need to work out how to integrate the car charging in there. Looks pretty powerful!

Zakalwe As with everything in life read the detail before signing on the dotted line.

Like how the warranty says the batteries are only warrantied for charge/discharge at a maximum of 2.5kW and every inverter they sell defaults to more than that 🙂

Zakalwe I now have a dashboard of complicated graphs, all of which are no doubt telling me something important... I can't see it doing any exporting, the Predbat plan looks exactly like it was under Intelligent Octopus, i.e. charge to 100% in the cheap period and then carry the house load during the day.

I probably need to learn how to tweak it. I also need to work out how to integrate the car charging in there. Looks pretty powerful!

Do ask (most of the commentary is on the ‘first night live with predbat’ discussion) if you have questions about Predbat

By default I think it starts in Monitor mode which is monitoring any current plan you have setup on your inverter and predicting PV and house load. If you want Predbat to start planning then you need to set the mode to Charge & Discharge but also set read_only to True so Predbat does the plan but doesn’t (yet) change your inverter settings.
When you are happy with the plan then turn off read only

Vestas is that perhaps a difference between what the battery outputs and what the inverter outputs? (Losses)

So I’ve decided to take the plunge and set up Predbat. I’ve got it in read-only mode on Monitor atm but like @Zakalwe says I just see a plan for charging 23:30 to 5:30 and nothing different, but just reading your comment @geoffreycoan that it needs to be in Control charge and discharge mode so will maybe turn that on but keep it in read-only (I’m just worried it might take action!). For those with an Ohme, there’s now a HA integration for it developed by a nice chap which you can find on GitHub. I’ve added in those sensors as us Ohme users can’t use the Intelligent sensors at present.

Took the plunge and enabled Charge and Discharge.
I need to find out how to set a minimum SOC threshold as the Plan is forecasting to take the SOC to 4% tomorrow evening, which leaves very little wriggle room

deanjesper yes that’s right

https://springfall2008.github.io/batpred/install#ready-to-light-the-touch-paper

Gives the steps to follow to progressively turn Predbat on but not have it control things when you don’t want it to.

The read only mode and control modes are relatively new features that Trefor has added from user feedback. When I started with Predbat last September it had none of these and started changing my inverter straight away - very scary !