We've got an 8.5kWh battery and we'd like to add a 9.5kWh one. Two quotes later and I'm stuck/torn - the local installers want about the same to install the battery as the retail price of the battery. It needs to be plonked next to the current one, cables attached and configured. I can't bring myself to pay that amount for such a quick job.
I'm electrically competent and this is easy to do yet GivEnergy will not warrant a home-installed battery and they won't do the config of it either. So, stuffed unless I want to spend around £3k for the installation.
I do agree with you here. I completely understand requiring an official sign off on the whole system when it is first installed, but this ridiculous locking down of systems to where the end user paid the money and can't "have" their system is utterly ridiculous. I have seen plenty of examples of poor installations by GE approved installers where to warranty is completely void leaving a mess for the end user to correct out of pocket (either in legal or another installer). For simple processes such as adding an extra battery, replacing a meter etc etc, it shouldn't require vast expense in cost to do these things, particularly as some people wanting to do it have a much greater understanding of electrics that the person installing it (a Masters in electrical engineering being one example). If I want to install an extra battery and take responsibility for it's warranty and that it might be void if I don't do it properly then so be it, that is my choice to make with the system that I own. It grinds my gears, and would certainly put me off GE in the future!
Look at part P of Building Regulations. Hm Gov dont want intelligent people to do anything
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#6Al E.Gator
SteveCook Totally Agree. The problem is that whilst you can pass and get the certificate, the audit process is too lengthy and costly to ensure that every job is carried out to that standard. Trust me, if you saw the electrical work and quality of my installation you'd think it was some kind of scam... probably why it caught fire! The core issue is that in order to ensure safety and compliance, the end user must by definition therefore know as much, if not more, than the person that installed it in order to be able to identify these issues. Now there are some absolutely fabulous electricians out there don't get me wrong, my general electrician being one of them, but for many people they will be blissfully unaware of some quite serious hazards and could result in major costs to the end user both financially and potentially in health to get something rectified if it is identified by them or someone else. Therein, if you limit the pool even further of people that can do work on a system through 'approved' installers, it just exacerbates the problem and limits who can pick up faults. But, it is what it is.
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#7SteveCook
Yes it took me ages to find my nuisance trip due to stray neutral when using EPS. The installer said at the time "i will need to come back and sort that", but I gave up waiting, got a meter, found it and fixed it.
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#8mrand31
It winds me up that I was considered a 'competent person' according to the Wiring Regs and had both done installation and inspection work. When Part P was introduces, I was apparently no longer competent. Similarly, our main works electrician was considered competent to install inspect and maintain systems from 415V to 11kV at work, but not considered competent to run a new circuit in his own house!
Strangely the gas Acts require competence, but do not define it as membership of any trade scheme for non trade installers. Part P entails a £600 per annum bribe for NICEIC membership (Other trade schemes are available) )or paying someone who's paid that bribe to inspect the work of non trade persons to carry out work on their own installations.
Having moaned about that, the 8.1kWh and 9.5kWh batteries are nominally 55V DC. This puts them into the or PELV or FELV category and Part P is irrelevant. Attending and passing the GE online installation course should be sufficient.
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#9Al E.Gator
mrand31 Created by electricians, for electricians sadly. Good point about the batteries though!
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#10MarkyG82
So what's the solution? Has anyone successfully fitted a second unit DIY or is our only option at this time to get a "qualified" installer out? I am interested in adding capacity but put off by install fees.
So far I'm thinking of two options:
1) Acquire unit myself and get an installer out
2) Single POC and get them to supply and install
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#11Vestas
MarkyG82 You won't find an installer willing to do it if you buy the battery.
The reason is quite simple - if the battery fails/is faulty then it can't be RMA'd/replaced because that requires the installer to have purchased the battery from a designated wholesaler. If they didn't buy it then they can't RMA it - and nor can you.
It really depends on your use case but what I did (in reverse though) is get a smaller power bank to run one room, so if thats an option and you could go that route - I have a Anker 4KwH (unit + expansion) running the study/chill out room pretty much (apart from lights)
I did initially plan to sell it after getting AIO but with the issues with firmware and me milking both each day as such Im keeping it for now.
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#13MarkyG82
@DreadorUK that's actually quite a good idea. Our living room is the biggest daily draw so a bank powering the stuff in there would help. Assuming you can time the charge of course like we do with the main system.
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#14geoffreycoan
Vestas Agree many installers may not want to install batteries they haven’t bought for the reasons you say, but my installer did install the 9.5 battery I bought from ITS Technologies and I’ve just agreed a price for them to install a new 9.5 bought from Midsummer and connect up the EPS.
I don’t see why as a purchaser of the battery I wouldn’t be able to RMA it with whoever I bought it from. Normal consumer protection laws are always available.
Where it could start to get more doubtful is if you buy a second hand battery from eBay etc. Warranty all starts to get more complex.
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#15MarkyG82
Thanks. Yes I agree there is an element of warranty concern with self purchased kit. The other side of the discussion being why we can't install it ourselves. They make it so straightforward (modules and plugged cables) but then insist on a backdoor to set it up. At least we don't pay vat on them at the mo.
Mine didn't have smarts for timed charging and can charge at 2 kWh, but I just have it charging at .7 instead and run it off a smart plug thats rated for 3kWh as it will fully charge still, no rush to get it full as such.
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#17Vestas
geoffreycoan Have you read the warranty policy over on kb.givenergy.cloud?
Edit - You can't RMA it because you can't get the manufacturers permission so for anything other than a gross failure (smoke/totally dead etc) its going to be a problem between you and wholesaler. That's not going to be rectified quickly, if at all.
Edit2 - The warranty policy is (IMHO) just another way to lock-in installers, many of whom (anecdotally) are less than thrilled with GE anyway.
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#18Al E.Gator
Vestas I think this is going to lead to a major issue with the second hand market. I can see in 10 years eBay being flooded with GE batteries that are still perfectly useable but may have 80% of their original capacity and people are wanting an upgrade. If no installers are willing to install these batteries even if they’re out of warranty and the consumer accepts that, it’s going to be such a waste. IMO swapping out duff meters, and adding/replacing batteries that have a gen 2 connector is the absolute minimum the end user should be allowed to do to their system. GE required photos of the install anyway and they can commission it themselves. Just an overly protectionist system for installers.
#19hoggy
The commissioning side has access to the same registers that Givenergy_modbus and so on have anyway, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it could be done locally in future once warranty is out the window.
I imagine if you don't care about warranty it can probably be done now if your determined enough to be honest.
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#20Vestas
hoggy I'm sure its eminently possible to work it out and I'm sure some "enterprising" person will attempt to monetise it 🙂
However given the "budget-brand" version of GE which has appeared recently, I'm pretty sure they'll be attempting to lock everyone in the supply chain into their "premium" ecosystem. "Warranty policy" certainly tends that way....
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#21Al E.Gator
Vestas I’m not sure the warranty is worth a lot of the paper it’s written on bearing in mind the steeply reducing scale of compensation, after a few years it’s not even worth it. They’ll only give you 50% after 4 years and reduce that further for a fair use cycles policy. I think in year 6 I might eye up a go at gaining access to the local registers😂
#22nophead
A friend of mine build his own big battery and inverter and simply plugs it into a 13A socket.
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#23catchercradle
Don't know if I would be up for adding a second battery to my system but three years ago after hearing prices to replace an 11 year old inverter that had packed up. I spoke to Andy at Midsummer energy and he suggested I do it myself. (He had done the original installation when they still did them.) The most difficult bit of the job was removing the bolts for the bracket the original inverter was mounted on! The rest of the job took under 15 minutes.
Edit: Just been looking at some of the other threads. Pretty sure I will want a second battery. We only have 5.2KW. I will see what the people we got the first one from say and if they are going to charge more than I think reasonable will look around for some other options. There were no such worries about putting a new inverter for one of our two sets of panels. (Two sets because one when OH retired and they went on with her pension lump sum and get the feed in tariff. Second set from money from my parents' will.) This time of year, since adding battery just under 4 weeks ago, it looks like we will only pay the standing charge for electricity and that is with charging an EV as well.
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#24pwdst
I was quoted £2,446.11 to "Supply & fit GivEnergy 8.2kWh Eco Li-Ion Battery" by a registered GivEnergy installer in the East Midlands FWIW. That's less than Midsummer Energy are listing it for without logging in and seeing trade prices.
#25Hook
Aren’t batteries vat free now?
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#26geoffreycoan
Hook they are since February, but still will be VAT for the installation services
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#27T-M
Hook Not if you buy them retail. The "vat free" scheme is actually a VAT Relief scheme, whereby a VAT registered installer buys it/them and pays the VAT, but doesn't pass the VAT charge on to you, the customer (technically, I think they actually charge you VAT at 0%). Said installer then reclaims the VAT from HMRC at some point (monthly/quarterly/annually?)
