Ive watched a video tonight on YT saying there are new regs for battery storage that says they are not to be stored in loft spaces and preferably external to the property, garages are ok under certain conditions.
What does GE say about their battery requirments? My battery is next to my meters in the garage. Im a bit worried about it tbh.
Marren2016
Can you link to the Video? I'd be circumspect in any information imparted on YouTube and I've seen no mention of it elsewhere.
Efixx electrical news
M_J beat me to it!
That's interesting, I'll download the document for a read later. I had Octopus come and do a Solar / Battery survey last year. To say I was not impressed would be an understatement. The guy totally ignored my input, there's a brick outbuilding less than a metre from the property " we can't put in there " I offered to lift the ( 3 ) slabs myself and even put a length of ducting but he was more concerned in selling a boilerplate installation that made it easier for them and was determined that the Battery go in the loft. I wanted to maximise the number of panels on the roof as it made sense as the scaffolding would be up there. The quote that came through was nothing like what I'd ask them to quote for. I went for a different supplier who listened and advised and ended up with a system I'm happy with. While the Octopus guy was doing the Solar / PV survey I tentatively mentioned that an ASHP might be next on our list, it turned out that he was the also the guy who did ASHP surveys. Needless to say they're not high on our list of preferred suppliers to quote.
Seems sensible enough - its obvious the fire brigade have had a large input.
Basically don't install batteries anywhere inside the house which is an escape route (so no installs under stairs, in corridors or near exit doors/windows), don't install in the loft or integral garage unless it has a firewall/fire door which will contain a fire (structurally) for 60 minutes and don't install anywhere that people may sleep. Integral garages should have that level of fire protection anyway if they were built in the last 35 years, lofts won't unless they've been converted and they're precluded then because its an area people could sleep.
Outside regs are likely to prove a good bit more problematic. You can't install the battery within 1m of doors, windows, vents or escape routes.
Also of note - you can't install more than 40kWh of storage indoors unless the area its installed in has firewalls/doors and will contain the fire for 60 minutes. If it is you can install a maximum of 80kWh of storage.
Edit - also batteries installed outside on a driveway or inside a garage will require additional mechanical protection which seems sensible in case they get hit by a car.
A (linked) smoke detector is required for most installs which aren't outside.
The rules on ventilation don't apply to Lithium Ion batteries, they're more for lead-acid where hydrogen can be released.
Pretty sure that 80%+ of current installs would fail the new standard, however as with all building regs, they are not retrospective. They will however apply to the system in its entirety if you install any further equipment (or replace existing equipment) so that's one to remember.
Edit2 - also makes sense of some things installers said/asked regarding double boarded ceiling and fire alarm in garage. They were obviously aware of this last July - or their parent company (the housebuilder) was.
For something brand new it seems very outdated. If enforced it will probably stop 80%+ of installations. Are there any records of domestic modern storage batteries causing an issue? The water tanks in our loft are far heavier than the 9.5 battery and I realise the water won’t burn but the beams that hold up a 1/4 ton of tank will. The bit about ventilation probably tells you how outdated it is. Coming from the same area that didn’t want car chargers on houses.
My system wouldn't have been allowed, in attic, next to escape route from the bedroom in attic.
I did a risk assessment and my mitigation is that we have hardwired fire alarms and one near the battery. I also have an escape ladder to exit bedroom via window rather than past the battery installation.
I am nervous about having the battery packs so close to our bedroom, but I had no other places that I could realistically place it.
Every day we as humans put ourselves at risk, we just need to be sensible and understand those risks...
Driving is the biggest risk we do daily...
You could however happily park 2x Tesla 100kWh cars in your garage (should you be so way inclined) so the storage limit part does seem a little odd?
SimonClarke I think its probably quite up to date actually.
The input from the fire brigade will be regarding actual incidents and won't be speculative.
There's thousands of incidents (couple of dozen involving death IIRC) where lithium ion batteries catch fire each year. Most of the batteries are sub-standard but even so there's plenty of examples where cells just get punctured by accident.
They're not exactly the same chemistry as the LiFePo batteries GE supply but they're part of the same family of batteries and its not reasonable (IMHO) to expect electricians (or fire brigade) to understand the difference. Could be some shonky crap installed by an idiot in the loft for all they know.
The ventilation stuff is for lead-acid batteries and there's plenty of those installed - got a UPS for example? Its lead-acid and could vent hydrogen. Nobody sane is going to install those new but if they're not included in the regs then you can bet someone WILL install them in lofts.
There's nothing really contentious in the document other than potentially some of the outside regs. Loft installs will probably need some additional boarding to comply.
hoggy Indeed but the cars aren't going to be covered by building regs now are they? 😉
I think GE's "budget brand" will have to do a bit of a redesign though given some of the proposed regs.
Vestas basing building regs on a few 50 quid ebike fires seems over the top. I haven’t seen any reported fires caused by modern house storage batteries. I suspect if they were remotely common they would be reported everywhere just like EV fires
SimonClarke Its a lot more than "a few". Its several thousand in London alone last year.
The battery market is the wild west and Amazon (for example) will import/distribute anything you want with no meaningful checks - supplier produces a (dodgy) certificate, they don't bother checking it.
I agree with you (currently) on home storage batteries but that situation isn't going to last because there's more and more systems being installed - and arguably some of those systems are being marketed as being easy enough to home install.
We got Part P wiring regs because of cowboy DIYers killing themselves/members of their family. We're getting this to hopefully stop the same cowboy DIYers killing other people.
Note that loft installs are NOT prohibited, they just need appropriate boarding to contain a fire for 60 minutes. Its not rocket science 😉
Vestas rather than attempting to enforce what sound like draconian rules that will stop a lot of legitimate installations wouldn’t it be better to enforce the rules we already have and start testing and certifying equipment for home installations. If necessary ban Amazon, fleabay etc from selling without a license. People who buy hooky stuff will probably have cowboys fitting it and therefore there will be no chance of forcing them to conform. Better to make it as difficult as possible for them to buy the stuff in the first place.
Part P, as implemented, is a trade protection scheme. BS7671 (The Wiring regs) was, and is the definitive document on electrical installations and was a legal requirement before and after the introduction of Part P, The difference now is that it needs a 5 day course and an annual bribe. Bah Humbug! 🙁
Back to the original thread:- I see no problem with differentiating between LiFeP04 systems and LiCo-X systems. The first are as safe as any other part of the structure in a fire or other event and the second are not. I wouldn't trust a Tesla PowerWall installation in a loft or inside a dwelling for example. Not because of the likelihood that they would initiate a fire but because of their response to an existing fire.. I would unequivocally trust a GE system.
Problem is that Fire Brigade input is based on old tech AIO for instance uses lifepo4 and isn't a fire risk unlike say a EV is sat in the garage
I understand this guys but the proposed regs cover the different battery chemistry "families", not subsets of those (of which there are many - and that list is only going to expand).
If you think it should be different then go make a comment on the document - its out for public comment after all.
So how are the majority of UK terraced houses (no garage) ever going to be able to install battery storage unless it is sat outdoors in the garden?
Lots of other issues with water to deal with
SteveCook Its probably worse than you imagine for terraced houses. Remember no install outdoors within 1m of doors, windows, vents or escape routes. Depending on the layout that probably means no way to install at all.
No point in asking questions/commenting here though....
Would imagine some of the suppliers, manufacturers and installers might be raising it somewhere though
SimonClarke Frankly they've already had their chance(s) to comment.
This has been ongoing for well over a year now (PAS revisions) so if they haven't been paying attention then that's their own fault. I can understand some small installers being unaware but if manufacturers/suppliers are only waking up to this now then that's simply their own negligence/incompetence to blame.
If enough consumers complain/comment then things may change a little.
Can but hope
An EV sitting in a garage isn't much of a fire risk either. In fact, I'd much rather have a BEV in the garage than a ICE as BEVs are somewhere between 20 to 60 times less likely to catch fire than a petrol/diesel car.
"With data corroborated from a US insurer, the study found that EVs suffer 25 fires per 100,000 sold.
Petrol or diesel vehicles were found to experience 1,530 fires per 100,000, with hybrid vehicles at a notably higher risk of 3,475 fires per 100,000."
Source: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/tusker-fleet-data-reveals-the-truth-about-ev-fires
Zakalwe Luton airport car park fire was from a Diesel car, not an EV as some erroneous reports first said
1500 cars destroyed. Ouch, some insurance claim that’d be
Took this a couple of weeks ago, they’re starting to dismantle the car park now. Only cars on the top deck were salvageable
Take a look at these 2 youtube videos that compare combustibility of LiNM and LiFP batteries.
It is nonsense to refer to them as both just 'lithium batteries' in this new regulations.
LiFP are safe.
LiFP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80
LiNM from 7:00 in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pu8hs6hmyk
GE batteries are LiFP. I know that some car manufactures are looking at them also but they have less energy density and consequently are heavier than LiNM batteries (and their variants).
Tesla Powerwall 2 uses LiNM chemistry.
I would be wary of an LiNM battery installed in a house.
Rob
Rbor thanks for the videos. Helps me sleep at night...
Rbor Several EV manufacturers are selling LFP battery-installed models including Tesla in the model 3 and even at the cheaper end like MG in their smaller capacity models for MG4 and MG ZS EV 51kWH versions.
I've downloaded the PAS but haven't digested it all yet. I do have a couple of points regarding it so far, though:-
I believe that these, particularly the latter, are significant.
Rbor just watched the videos. He wasn’t very well prepared (dressed!) for that first one was he!
Rbor LiFP are safe.
If a 100kg battery falls through a plasterboard ceiling and lands on you, I doubt the chemistry will have much bearing on the outcome.
And it's not about now, things in lofts tend to get forgotten. A battery may only last for 10 or 20 years, get disconnected and just left up there (because it would be difficult to remove). Then 30 years from now, the vibrations from installing a holographic teleportation chamber cause the battery fixings to work loose and down it comes.
SimonClarke Are there any records of domestic modern storage batteries causing an issue?
No, because the cause of a fire would be recorded as "Electrical Fault". However fires involving solar/battery equipment do seem to be on the increase (not surprising as more are being installed and none removed!)
Does the video mention the HF generated when LFP batteries burn?
That burns real bad… just not with a flame.
Rubikcube I think potentially 500kg of water tank would make a bigger dent. Don’t think ours weighs quite that much but still more than a battery and it’s been there 27 years held up with a few nails and bits of wood but nobody has been particularly worried about that.
kram what is HF?
SteveCook what sort of temperature is required to cause that?
SimonClarke
Yes, we have a cold water tank in the loft, it's on a raised platform to give the gravity fed showers a bit more head. Been there 25 years or so and is made of plastic/ rubber, also in the loft is the original ( empty ) galvanised tank that wouldn't fit through the hatch so it's still up there.
SimonClarke
No idea, just browsing the interweb
SteveCook just thinking that if it is 500c you are either dead or out of the house and the fire brigade are stood on the road spraying water. If it’s a 1000 who cares! If it’s a 100….
Tenkaykev as far as I know it isn’t illegal to store anything in your private loft (expect petrol maybe) so if you decide to store 5 tonnes of bricks up there it’s your choice stupid or not. Nobody coming in to rescue you would know.
Vestas professional installers, or any competant person really, should undertake a risk assessment of what s being installed. Battery manufacturers could help by adding a "Fire risk" number for the product, in the same way as energy levels are assessed. At the end of the day, if someone is happy to have an electrical product installed by an incompetant person then its really their call! Any electrical appliance is a risk as the Grenfell residents found out to their cost when a fridge caught fire..
mrand31 no its the cobalt ones which catch fire I believe, not the LiFePo. The former are the older ones.
mrand31 Actually even the "wiring regulations" BS7671 isnt a legal document, its guidance, stated within the scope of said document, compliance of which would be taken into consideration within a court of law . The only legally enforced regulations are the electricity at works regulations 1989 and the one related to the distribution of power systems which title escapes me but isnt relevant to this.
SimonClarke also High Frequency :]
mikgle55 Henry Ford
Marren2016 Givenergy data sheets state their LiFePo4 batteries are non-flammable and non toxic. As always, an installation is only as good as the installer, who should be both competent and able to do an installation risk assessment, as with any electrical installation. Like me for example :-)
Just watched Gary does Solar and his take on the new regs.
He brought up a good point that I did not think about.
So if you have batteries in loft or under the stairs with no ventilation already installed you are ok when the rules come into force, however as batteries last between 10 and 12 years (GE battery warranty) if they need replacing then the rules apply, so you would potentially have to move all the wiring to put batteries elsewhere (if you have somewhere to put them that is)
High Fidelity - the Lancia sports and racing cars
mrand31 BS7671 isnt a legal document, see my other reply on this. Its guidance, read the Scope at the beginning of the standard..
mikgle55
Agreed, but in any court case the judge would/could say "and on what grounds/what qualifies you to ignore this guidance. How do you know better than this learned document"
I understood that as well, however as so many departments (fire brigade etc) are involved with this document it will be (soon)
btw - GE soon = months / years 👍🤷🏼♂️
A lso the house insurance aspect will potentially be a problem. Now going to renew my Tesla insurance which has doubled so this might do the same for home insurance whether warranted or not
Daveb01 That's the sort of case with all building regs - assuming this gets that far.
They aren't retrospective until you start changing things which no longer comply.
For example if you have more than 25% of a roof retiled/recovered then you must upgrade ALL the insulation under that roof to current building standards. Edit - that's for England, rest of the UK has more stringent building regs on insulation.
However I think he's wrong in this instance as you'd be repairing an existing installation which failed under warranty. That's not the same in legal terms as installing new equipment.
mikgle55 no its the cobalt ones which catch fire I believe, not the LiFePo. The former are the older ones.
Maybe I should have been more specific in my comment. The point was that neither of the only two battery storage companies on the PAS committee have any reason to see LiFePO4 batteries allowed in lofts and LiMnCo batteries barred on fire risk grounds, since they only make/sell the latter and would be supporting their competitors at the expense of their own products. (Yes BSI committees can be partisan at times)
It would help if GE got involved...
I phoned NFU yesterday as Home and contents policy renewal came up.
Told them that I had added panels and battery in last 12 months.
They were not really interested other than adding a few thousand £s to the rebuild costs for the panels and a few thousand £s to the contents for the battery (on the basis I would take it if I moved).
No questions about manufacturer, kit, battery location etc
SteveCook good. Let’s hope the rest are as sensible but having renewed my car insurance yesterday (doubled) I won’t hold my breath! I always found the NFU good but pricey - partly because we had a thatched house at the time and no real choice, but they always paid out.
SimonClarke Ours don't care - as far as they're concerned its part of the building/fixtures & fittings so the additional potential cost is negligible compared to their standard default rebuild cost of £1m.
Not very surprising TBH as none of the insurers will have enough data on batteries to be able to assess the risk. There simply aren't enough installed so far....
Vestas and they are a bit slow and haven’t noticed yet
Vestas
Yes, I emailed Nationwide a few months ago detailing what had been installed, they replied that all was fine and that my premiums would not be increasing.
I had the same reply from Nationwide when I phoned them about adding solar panels and batteries to my home the premiums would stay the same.
FYI when getting quotes for Buildings insurance the question is never asked in the process on the various comparison sites...
If it's not asked they don't care as every comparison site would ask specifically if the companies needed that info.
Now if the risks change and the insurance companies have to start paying out after battery or solar fires you can be certain those questions will be asked...
Solar installations have been fairly common for over 10 years due to FiT scheme and that's not been a statistical issue so far...
Batteries are early days and we shall see if there is an issue over the coming years...
M_J if there is a real issue that is fair enough but if it’s just because of new misguided/misinformed restrictive guidelines that would be annoying
They can catch fire too, they have a less energetic burn profile, but as they burn (less flames than NCM) they produce significantly more HF.
Essentially the whole LFP is safe is a misnomer. Safer in some ways less in others, but really you don’t want to be near either if they go up.