Maximising Agile. Hugo vs WonderWatt?

I have:
8kw solar panels
5Kw Gen1 Hybrid inverter (2.6kwh max charge/discharge)
3 x 8.2kw Gen1 Batteries
16kw LG ASHP
EV

Octopus Agile import
Octopus Fixed 15p export

trying to automate as far as possible my charge/discharge cycles - preferably without having to have manual tweaks daily.

Currently using WonderWatt which seems pretty good as far as it goes.
Importing 12 cheapest slots 22:30 to 07:00 (perhaps should increase to say 16 slots?)
exporting at max rate 15:00 to 22:28 for home use and then to grid (avoiding as far as possible expensive imports)
maximising solar exports as batteries full as early as possible

max inverter charge/discharge rates impact me but I don't think its worth upgrading.

So far not sure I have technical ability to move to Home Assistant etc - especially as my ASHP does not have easy integration.

Any comments/suggestions on what I might do better? Particularly interested to know if I would get any benefit from Hugo Pro?

Tim Adams there's another thread on here talking about clipping - you might to have a read of that. Because your solar capacity exceeds AC generation of inverter, you want to leave plenty of space in the battery to accept some of the power. So fully charging early in the day may not be a good strategy.

DD thanks for that. I'll keep an eye on it but afaik my clipping is pretty minimal. I should have explained my solar is split with roughly 6kw on the Givenergy system and a further old FIT system 2kw on Solaredge.

The Givenergy panels are not super efficient as they are on a flat roof facing east. But still produce more than I might have expected.

So the occasions we end up with clipping are likely to be infrequent. But I agree - something to watch for.

Tim Adams Is your FIT system on deemed export, or did you switch to using metered output? If the former, that seems quite an interesting situation - for deemed eport, you want to maximise self consuption, but for your other generation, you clearly want to maximise export. How would the accounting work?

I'd not come across Hugo before. What do you think it could do for you that wonderwatt can't, and have you made suggestions to wonderwatt? They seem quite responsive, and participate in this forum,

Do you have a smart EV charger that can take advantage of agile pricing and/or solar ?

DD deemed eport, you want to maximise self consuption

Used to be the case but Octopus outgoing rates have changed that old rule...

DD
FIT system is on metered output - afaik that was a requirement in order to get metered output on the Givenergy system.

I've been using WonderWatt only for a few weeks and still trying to setup best schedules. Yes, also find them responsive. I'm not sure if Hugo is better - just exploring options. I think I will try the Pro just to see

I have a zappi charger and mostly just schedule it for night charging. Therefore its better to sell all my solar for 15p most of the time.

on first look... Hugo does not support Givenergy! so could be showstopper!

M_J Used to be the case but Octopus outgoing rates have changed that old rule...

Hmm... if you are on deemed export, self-consumption is best. But the outgoing rates mean that choosing to stay on deemed export is questionable.

Tim Adams I have a zappi charger and mostly just schedule it for night charging. Therefore its better to sell all my solar for 15p most of the time.

But it gives you the choice to solar-charge if agile prices go back up.

I'm still on IOG for now, but these cheap agile prices are very tempting...

DD yep ... even with my inefficient usage of the apps i've got my average import price down to about 7p ... and increased exports .. so that for last 3 weeks I have a negative cost! even with 16kw ashp and ev... and solar not producing huge amounts due to poor weather

Obviously the key period is more Oct - Mar when my ashp eats a lot.
Very, very roughly I think my imports are around 8000kwh pa
solar production around 6000kwh.

My hope is to get net elec cost down to around £1000 pa. not sure if its achievable but moved a long way over past year as I got to grips with weather compensation on ashp and first moved to Tracker and then Agile

Never heard of Hugo Pro https://hugoenergypro.co.uk/ - it seems to have lots of glossy website but not a lot of actual details of what it does and how it works.

As @Tim Adams says, doesn’t include GivEnergy on the list of solar systems.

The other alternative to WonderWatt and Home Assistant is MyEnergyOptimiser. A few people here use MyEO and Gary does Solar YouTube channel, he reviewed it and uses it. Not aware of specific pro’s or con’s of one vs the other, I think the features are quite similar.

In terms of battery strategy, need to consider the losses of charging and discharging from solar or grid. Predbat in Home Assistant does this quite well, but roughly consider that each conversion of AC to DC or vice versa will lose about 7-10% of the energy. So if you are charging the battery overnight from grid at 10p then in reality its costing you about 11p/kWh to charge the battery, and for each kWh of stored charge in the battery you’ll only get about 0.92kWh out when you come to discharge.
So really you need a clear 1.5-2p difference between import and the 15p export rate to make it worthwhile grid charging to start solar export sooner.

And yes, if you want to go onto measured export from new solar panels then you have to give up the FIT deemed export. For me it was a no-brainer, I gave up £100 a year of deemed export for £500+ of measured export

geoffreycoan
agreed. i tend to aim for agile charging sub 10p for those reasons but may allow it to be squeezed!

i've been in touch with Hugo - they plan to add Givenergy in future as some sort of priority

Following this thread with interest as I just switched to Agile on Friday and I am working the system manually at the moment to gain an understanding of what I need to automate the process.

EV - just a dumb charger so can't automate but there are EV charge points that will schedule cheap slots so might justify a new charger at some point.

Solar - as noted I have a 10+ year old FiT agreement and a no brainer to stop deemed export and switch to 15p export payments. No way to automate export so has to be via battery management.

Home Battery - Doing this manually at moment and working out use cases. So far I think I need a process that can charge and discharge at multiple times during the day.

Hot Water - manual and while I have a Tesla heating element I can adapt the schedule as and when I see agile prices. No automation possible so need to work out an approach on this.

M_J good luck!

WonderWatt well worth a look... free... pretty straightforward to use.
at least can then get some base imports and exports automated

M_J as others have said, take a look at wonder watt

You could automate your hot water with a high power smart switch (don’t use a smart plug, most of them are not rated for the high power). But whether it’s worth it or not

In a recent reply to a discussion about possible future automations, the WW admin said:

" Yep - definitely on our list of things to look at. A smarter hands-off option that maximises ROI. Using usage, solar forecast, current SOC, prices etc. to work out whether to hold, import or export.

Needs a fair bit of work, but aiming for a Prebat equivalent in this arena."

Sounds very promising.

Tim Adams Any comments/suggestions on what I might do better? Particularly interested to know if I would get any benefit from Hugo Pro?

I've been using MyEO since late last year and very happy with it. I have a similar set up to you but 9kW of panels split E/W and Hybrid 5kW inverter. Also on Agile and Fixed Export. MyEO will automatically work out when to use the battery vs grid input based on the Agile pricing for the day and the predicted load - not sure if that's commonplace but it means you can forget about intra-day tinkering.

downfield thanks! i'll take a look...

M_J
I'm considering moving from deemed export, next winter so if it takes ages I don't loose too much! . Can AIO be configured to ignore solar so house load comes from battery and solar goes all to grid?

s_r_thomas It took about 6 weeks to happen for me. Octopus apply for an MPAN, that then gets stuck with the DNO who have apparently up to 3 months to issue the export MPAN (mine got stuck at this point with a query over my G100 approval from the DNO, a query that Octopus didn’t pass on to me to resolve).

Once the MPAN is created you then need to get your FIT deemed export ceased. You can either move your FIT payments to Octopus or leave them where they are with your FIT supplier, but cease the deemed export - which is what I did as it should have been quicker. The FIT supplier sends you a new FIT agreement to sign, you have to provide a FIT meter reading to the FIT supplier for the final bill. They then update your account on the FIT central database. Once this is done Octopus are ready to start your export, they will need a start meter reading (and photo) from your meter box meter (not the FIT meter).

s_r_thomas Here is my experience and what I would do if I did it again.

1st I switched from Eon to Octopus for the FiT payments. I thought this would help speed up the following processes and I thought Octopus would have better ways than Eon to manage the FiT payments. Conclusion don't switch - I had to jump through many hoops, and Octopus management of FiT is not as good as Eon. I could have done the following without switching...

2nd once I was switched to Octopus I asked for the ability to export and hence drop off the deemed export scheme. I put the request in on the 15th Feb after some chasing I got confirmation I had the ability to export on the 12th April. So nearly a month.

3rd Last Friday I switched to Agile and it was done the same day!!! Up and running within hours.

So allow at least a month to switch away from deemed export. It could maybe have taken longer if I had stayed with Eon as I would have had to get agreement with them rather than Octopus.

Just my experience YMMV

s_r_thomas Can AIO be configured to ignore solar so house load comes from battery and solar goes all to grid?

I don't have a AIO but with what I have I don't think that is possible.

M_J I was (and still am) with Eon for my FIT payments.

Telling them I wanted to cease deemed exports, filling the forms in, getting the request processed and the central db updated took about a week end to end. That was fairly quick.

Sounds like you got stuck waiting for the DNO to issue the MPAN as part of step 2.

Oh and BTW, its not highlighted but you can if you wish in the future swap back to deemed exports if you want. Both Eon and Ofgem confirmed this is possible.

geoffreycoan Oh and BTW, its not highlighted but you can if you wish in the future swap back to deemed exports if you want. Both Eon and Ofgem confirmed this is possible.

Nice to know...