myenergi zappi set-up - control battery charge/drain.

Folks
I thought it might help those of you with a zappi and an ESS (Energy Storage System / home battery) to know about a setting hidden deep in the zappi, to help control your ESS battery (batteries) whilst EV charging in ECO+ mode.

Problem - the zappi can't maintain its min 1.4 kW for ECO + operation, because the ESS keeps nicking the surplus PV / Wind generation!

2nd problem - when charging in ECO+, the zappi nicks energy from the ESS, which I want to retain, for later use!

The tendency is to change the ESS settings, such that it won't discharge during the times you're in ECO+ mode, but this varies with the weather, and you'll probably need to keep changing your programmed times.

Solution - the zappi has a couple of setting deep-down in the bowels, which prevents the above issues.
It's called 'Avoid' ...
Options are:

Avoid Drain
Avoid charge
Avoid both

The zappi needs to be fed with CT (Current Transformer) info from the ESS, but a good installer should give you this feature, anyway.

The settings are within the advanced menu, so you'll need your passcode (or the default one), and can be found in:
Other settings / Advanced / Supply grid / Network / Battery

Here are a couple of excerpts from the manual, on the subject; (unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to insert images into posts, other than as links):

Installation
zappi operation and installation manual
Battery Storage Systems (page 41) for more information about battery storage systems.
The table below details the different settings for working with an AC coupled battery storage system:
Setting, Function, Description
'None' There is no battery system installed.
'Avoid Drain' Stops the zappi (or other linked myenergi devices) draining the battery when using surplus
power from the solar or wind generation.
'Avoid Charge' Effectively allows the zappi (or other linked myenergi devices) to take priority over the battery
when charging from solar or wind generation.
'Avoid Both' Provides both of the above functions. This setting will normally provide the best compatibility
'Limit to Gen' Will limit the output of the zappi (except when boosting), to prevent unwanted draining of an AC
coupled battery system. This setting does not require a CT to monitor the battery but does need
a CT to monitor the solar/wind generation.
Note: This setting is to support legacy installations – it is preferable to install a CT to monitor the
battery and use one of the settings below.

Battery Storage Systems
AC Coupled
Where there is an AC coupled battery storage system, there can be a conflict as both the storage system and the
zappi are competing to consume the surplus energy. Whilst this is not necessarily an issue, the results can be
somewhat unpredictable.
There is the option to add an additional CT sensor to monitor the battery storage. This will give control as to which
device has priority. The additional CT sensor should be wired to one of the CT terminals in the zappi or harvi device
(if wireless measurement is required). This CT should be clipped around the live cable of the battery inverter with the
arrow on the CT pointing away from the battery and towards the consumer unit/fuse board.
During the setup process it will be necessary to change the setting for the appropriate CT to AC Battery; refer to CT
Config (page 24). Also refer to Supply Grid – Network Settings – Battery (page 23) for information on setting the
'priority' of battery systems.

Hope this helps some Folk - give me a 'like' it it's helped you. Thanks.

Hi Sykes,

I did dig into those settings on the Zappi, only snag is the Zappi can't see the GivEnergy battery as its DC coupled not AC coupled - all I can feed the Zappi (which is what it currently gets) is the AC output from the inverter which could be either solar or battery driven. MyEnergi don't support those functions properly according to their forums but I don't understand why when they seem to work well with AC coupled ESS.

Its possible to set an export margin on the Zappi but it only really works well on really good PV generation days for me even with 6kw of south facing PV a that 2.5kw drain for the battery plus another 250w for the household means I need a solid 4.2kw of generation.

The new ESS charge rate control from the GivEnergy side does resolve this issue for me (once its back to better PV generation times of the year!). It's also worth noting I don't expect this to be much of an issue for around 4 months of the year - its about optimising use during March-April and September to October.

I'm holding out hope for the new charger integration stuff from the GivEnergy side - ideally you want to be able to enable the PV to hold the charge on the EV and divert excess into the ESS as a potential control function.

Hi @yandards
That's a shame about the snag with DC-coupled batteries.
Good that you've posted it though, thanks. I'm sure all of this will help others in the same predicament - and just as importantly, those still planning / selecting their systems.

As you eluded to, I wouldn't be surprised if forthcoming upgrades from GE allow for even more user-control, and offer a solution to this, and other issues.
Another added bonus for me if this were to happen, would be to save so many visits to the zappi app, or physical unit, to make changes; at the moment, I find myself regularly logging in to several systems - to tweak settings, depending upon PV output / desired ESS levels etc.

==================================================================

For anyone needing to understand more, DC-coupled systems are usually those where the battery(s) is connected to a 'hybrid' inverter, which takes a feed directly from the solar PV (DC). So the PV's DC, the battery's DC, hence the term DC-coupled.
The hybrid inverter not only sorts out the PV energy into the right voltage & current to charge the battery, but also (when instructed) takes DC from the battery, inverts it to AC, and connects it to the house supply for either covering demanded house loads, or even onward export to the grid, if desired by the operator.
Finally, if desired by the operator, it can also reverse this process, and take AC grid energy, transform it into the correct DC, then feed it back to the battery, for charging (normally, on a cheap energy tariff).

AC-coupled systems normally have a dedicated inverter which is fed from the solar PV (DC) which then changes this into AC, and connects it straight to the house system (mains), where, once again, it's used to meet house demand (if sufficient) and any surplus can then be exported to the grid, or used for EV / house battery charging etc.
If used in an Energy Storage System (ESS aka house battery, as above) it needs a separate inverter/controller to take the AC from the house / grid supply, and turn it back into DC for battery charging,
As before, the inverter/controller can also reverse this process, and feed ESS DC, inverted to AC, back to the house / grid, as desired.
In this case, the battery is effectively connected straight to the AC system, hence the term 'AC-Coupled.'

Hope this helps.

Yes, AC coupled systems play nicer with the Zappi as it can be configured with an additional CT clamp, allowing the Zappi to track what the battery is doing. This allows it to see if it is purely excess coming from the solar inverter. Unfortunately due to how CT clamps work they cannot give a reading to show what a DC battery is doing. To get round this a software solution would be needed to allow the 2 systems (myenergi & Givenergy) to talk to each other and tell each other what they are doing. This isn't always easy mainly as both manufacturers have to work together or at least not deliberately make each others lives difficult. I believe the way GivEnergy is going to address this is to allow a retro fit CT device to be connected to the EV charge point supply cables. This will allow givenergy to ignore draw from this device (EV point) and exclude it from discharging to a load demand of a car. This additional CT device would be hooked up to the givenergy inverter to allow monitoring. This is much like one of the reasons myenergi brought out the harvi, so you can add more CT monitors if required; the Zappi only has 2 by default. This means the GivEnergy system becomes the brains for managing the power systems. A similar setup would be required to exclude discharge to other heavy loads such as an Eddi or other heating related devices like a heat pump.

I wonder if to also counteract this Givenergy would consider implementing some sort of wait period during times of excess generation before starting to charge the DC battery. Essentially Exporting it for say 10s, enough time for the Zappi to 'see' the excess and go "MINE!". The zappi does this I'm sure so that it can play nice with AC coupled batterys and their charging priority, and also to prevent itself from stop/starting when shading occurs temporarilly or pesky clouds suddenly revealing the sun for only 10s of the day.
@simon_swinburne any thoughts on if this could be passed along

Salibaba I've fixed this 'issue' in terms of scheduled timing etc.

The Zappi only has 15 minute scheduled timing settings and as I'm intending to keep the car for a while I'm trying to keep it in the 40-80% sweet spot for charging. So I'm manually setting charging times on the Zappi on a daily basis on Octopus Go aiming to finish the charge at 0430 so it keeps hold of some of the battery heating until the car is driven around 0740ish.

To stop the Zappi pinching the battery I've set the battery to charge to 100% from 0030 until 0435, this has worked with no issues and at the moment I only need to set the Zappi and nothing else.

Problem is going to be when the PV generation starts becoming more of a factor as setting all this up then becomes a bit of a fight. I'm not looking forward to try and balance the forecast PV, battery charge whilst stopping any overnight car charging draining the battery.

yandards My "future" zappi setup will run slightly differently after speaking with myenergi about my setup. My zappi will be set to eco+ mode to take any spare solar after the house battery has charged. The zappi can be set to ignore the house battery with an extra CT clamp. Then set a boost charge in the schedule for the times of my Go Faster. If this all works as myenergi says it will I will just plug in all the time and leave it alone.

Yea, I've seen this done before, the Zappi has 2 CT header inputs internally 1 for the Grid and one for PV generation in most cases. If you have another myenergi product like an Eddi, then you can use one of its inputs for the battery CT, as myenergi products share their CT data on a private wireless network. Otherwise you will need a Harvi to get the extra input.
I could probably set my own systems to similar once we get to summer, just use a decent time wait on the zappi to allow the Givenergy battery time to kick in and charge if it wants to. Once it's full, the pure excess for the grid the zappi could take. TBH that works out fine as I'd still be saving on kWh draw from the grid either way no matter what absorbs it. If it goes in my house battery, I'll use it. If it goes in the car, I'll use it. It just saves one or the other from having to get additional grid draw. About the only time I can see I'd rather have one or the other is if I have an event I need the car topped up for, or If it works out cheaper to avoid evening peak draw from the grid If I happen to move to Agile. As long as the kWhs don't get exported, I can't see the difference in which one I select as a priority.

Salibaba I'm waiting for a zappi to be fitted at the moment and my understanding is that the current zappi model has 3 CT inputs, or at least I hope it does.

Salibaba The SW solution you speak about is well underway I am told and will be released soon.

I have a a piece of kit the communicates from my externally fitted battery to the garage where the Solar Edge inverter is and they talk and do stuff! there is a module for this piece of kit that will allow integration and control of the Zappi and GivEnergy system.

judgepd It does have 3 but 1 is internal and the other 2 can be cabled. However I've learned in the past month your probably better off paying for a Harvi and use their inbuilt 3 CT clamp connection solution.

THALL
One word of caution - in case you've not yet considered it...
Not sure whether you're DC or AC - coupled, but if you're AC, with an AC 3.0, then even the previously-mentioned 'Avoid' settings won't prevent ESS battery drain, when you've set a scheduled charge, as you describe - despite the fact that you're using ECO or ECO+ to arm the schedule.
During scheduled charging, the unit operates just like a 'Fast' charge, and will draw the max 7kW from wherever it can - including your treasured & previously-charged ESS battery(s).
I find that to avoid this, I use old Mode 3 timers, and set the ESS controllers to avoid discharge during zappi scheduled charging times.

HTH.

Sykes So the 'avoid drain' doesn't 'avoid drain' during a scheduled charge?

Sykes So I will need to use Timed Charge in the winter like I do now then change that to Timed Discharge instead? That is weird though I did explain my setup to myenergi and they seemed pretty sure the system would ignore the battery. But good to know, thanks for that. I guess that eliminates the possibility of going back on Octopus Agile if prices every recover :-(

It may be of use to someone but you can get the data of when the Zappi is charging from their API which would then allow you to reduce the GE discharge to 0 to whenever it's charging by setting the battery Register discharge rate to 0

MyEnergi API Notes
(This is of no use to me as I own an Indra and an Ohme charger, so can only help on the "reducing discharge to 0" part)

judgepd

So the 'avoid drain' doesn't 'avoid drain' during a scheduled charge?

In my experience, no.
Perhaps with a different set-up (hybrid inverter/different batteries / wiring etc ) it may behave differently, but I was very disappointed one morning, when I'd been successfully using overnight scheduled charging for several months, and finally got my batteries installed, so tried the usual charge, only to find 2 very flat 8.2s, and the zappi having drawn a lot less from the grid, than I'd expected!

Perhaps give it a go on your particular set-up, but keep a close eye for the first 10 mins or so. It could be that different systems behave differently.

THALL So I will need to use Timed Charge in the winter like I do now then change that to Timed Discharge instead? That is weird though I did explain my setup to myenergi and they seemed pretty sure the system would ignore the battery. But good to know, thanks for that. I guess that eliminates the possibility of going back on Octopus Agile if prices every recover :-(

...as I said to @judgepd , it could be that on different set-ups, the zappi behaves differently. Perhaps give it a go, but keep a close eye on it.
I'm just keen that we all share our own experiences, so that collectively, we'll become more knowledgeable about our various bits of kit.
It would be good if you posted, once you'd had chance to experiment, so that others can see if different set-ups yield different results.

Sykes Myenergi say this is monitor via a CT clamp from the battery, do you have the extra ct clamp on your zappy to monitor battery draw?

Though for me personally I might give up on getting an EV for now. I asked my local dealer if they could chase VW for an update and basically got told to contact VW myself. Reading some ID3 forums they are suggesting up to a 12 month wait! That will mess up the trade in deal I got......

Our zappi is being fitted in January and the EV is due for delivery who knows when after that, but it's good to get an idea of what is and isn't possible before then. I think ideally I'd just like a solution to say never discharge the battery in order to charge the car.

Sykes Of course. If I ever get one :-(

judgepd You got a zappi installed without a delivery day? Hmm when I spoke to Myenergi about ordering one they said it had to be within 90 days of getting the car to claim the government grant for it. I have not been able to order a zappi as all I have is confirmation from the factory that my order has been accepted.

THALL Well, we do have a delivery date of the 31st January but I'm just trying not to get my hopes up that it will actually be delivered.

judgepd Ohhhh, well that makes sense. Can I ask what EV you are getting? I ordered an ID3 Life Pro Performance 7 weeks ago but had no delivery ETA yet. I was tempted by a Mokka E which I could of gotten next week but I went for the ID3 and was told first week of March but that is starting to sound unlikely 😢

Nice, we've ordered a Hyundai Ioniq 5. Ordered 21st November and due 31st January (apparently). We did test drive an ID4 and were told that would be 7-9 months.

judgepd nice! tad outside my budget though, my id3 was 28k exact.

THALL Yeah, we're lucky that my wife gets money for a car from her work so that will cover a lot of it, nothing wrong with the ID3 though.

I am surprised at the lack of input here from GivEnergy. I had 8.2 & SolarEdge fitted 10th November. I wanted full Zappi integration, GivEnergy support said that is not possible yet but they are working on a plug in module, with MyEnergi, that'll be fitted to the LoRa and that will address that integration.

Once the SW and FW updates are ready then they can be fitted. i am led to believe it is fairly imminent just some coding to complete. MyEnergi have confirmed they are also working on this.

iVoltz will give me a price when it is all available.

THALL That is all I needed for my e Niro and my Zappi. A confirmed order.

I am a little confused here. Are you ordering direct from MyEnergi? If you go to an accredited MyEnergi installer they'll do all the paperwork. They normally claim the OLEV grant direct and knock it off your price.

They don't get paid the OLEV until it is fitted and they have to provide photographic proof of the install.

mjkelly5a I did mine via myenergi and got to pick from 3 quotes. I had to upload the order form for the car but no-one asked for any more details than that.

judgepd I had a mate do that and when they turned up to do it they couldn't. A survey had to be carried out and some extra work had to be done to upgrade some of his existing installation.

Lesson learned for me. I had them survey 1st!

mjkelly5a We should be fine as I sent them loads of pictures and it's a pretty straightforward installation.

mjkelly5a I was filling in the Get a quote form on the myenergi site. But while speaking to myenergi (weeks ago) I was advised there was a 6 week wait to get a zappi, but that I needed a delivery date for my ev and the charger could only be installed within the last 90 days. This might be wrong but it is what was told. Which at the moment is fine as VW have no idea when the next batch will be delivered to the UK.

Our zappi install is booked for the 20th January and at the moment the EV is due for delivery 31st January so we should be okay for the 90 day period. I did also tell the installer this and they seemed fine with it.

THALL Myenergi say this is monitor via a CT clamp from the battery, do you have the extra ct clamp on your zappy to monitor battery draw?

Sorry for the tardy reply - I got half way through replying yesterday, then got sidetracked...

Yes - there is another CT in my system for this. Definitely worth it, too.
It provides 2 very useful functions in my mind:

1. It allows the zappi to 'control' * current flow to/from the batteries during EV charging - as per my original post in this thread.

2. I use the term loosely, as it doesn't actually control the battery at all. but I think instead, it adjusts it's own voltage to ensure it gets priority etc. NB this is only my theory, and not based upon any factual data I'm aware of.

3. It allows the CT input at the zappi end, to be configured as a battery, which provides not only a battery icon on the app, but also an indication of ESS current flow direction, and volume. I find this makes the myenergi app by far the most comprehensive tool in my armoury, which is easy to use, and provides all the info I need to see at-a-glance, my system performance. I pretty much don't bother with the GE one, as I'm afraid, they've got a long way to go to make really user-friendly products.

mjkelly5a I had a mate do that and when they turned up to do it they couldn't. A survey had to be carried out and some extra work had to be done to upgrade some of his existing installation.

Lesson learned for me. I had them survey 1st!

@judgepd @THALL

This raises a very good point for anyone considering an EV charger / ESS / PV / heat pump etc.

I think it's a great time to take a deep breath, and have a long, hard look at your existing home electrical system - or rather, get your electrician to do so.
So many older properties (like our 70s one) are really quite dated, in their electrical set-up (we had the old-style fuse boards, for example) and whilst they manage to groan along year, on year, in their extant state, bring to the party potentially much more current flow, and your 'old faithful' suddenly can no longer cope.
For a (relatively) small amount of spondula it's really worth biting the bullet, and:

Checking the size of the DNO (District Network Operator) fuse - which is the main fuse into your property from the grid.
Many of these have very old-style fuse holders, and only 60 amp fuses in them - which could restrict what you can do in the future. Most DNOs will upgrade these for free - for a modern carrier, and at least an 80 amp fuse (I've heard reports of 100 amp, too).

Sorting yourself of with a SMETS 2 electricity meter. Your electricity supplier (the ones who bill you) will be keen to upgrade you, and will do this for free, too.
There are no SMETS1 meters being fitted any more, so the old issue of ending up with a meter which your preferred supplier can't switch you to because they can't access your meter, is no longer a 'thing'.
Also, SMETS2 meters can allow you to tap into the more sexy Time-of-Use tariffs, which can be of benefit (although the famous Octopus Agile one is pretty much dead in the water, in the current crisis).

Upgrade any old kit, to modern distribution boards / consumer units, with proper circuit breakers etc.
be sure to talk through with your electrician any future plans, though, so they can provide scaleable equipment for you.

If you're planning to fit an EV charger, be sure to check your grid supply FIRST! - your DNO can help you with this.
One big banana skin here, is that many old houses - particularly those which are in a terrace, or similar, weren't wired with their own, individual supply, but rather 'looped' with all of the other properties in the same row. This means that the grid supply comes in at one end, and is then passed from from one property to the next - meaning that the amount of load any one property can put on the supply, is very much limited, and this can scupper your plans for an EV charger, or other high-load piece of equipment. Check this first, to avoid any red faces.

WRT ESS (battery storage) if anyone's interested, as I conducted my research, it became apparent that ESS performance CAN (not necessarily does) degrade, with a drop in temperature, and whilst many manufacturers class their equipment as IP65, I'm not sure that it's wise having your expensive kit covered in snow, and sat in sub-zero temperatures.
At least consider getting it under cover - many go for he garage, or loft (very popular with the installers, NOT!).
I actually decided upon our utility room; it is, after all, just that, and for me, provided the ideal place to keep everything safe, warm, and weatherproof.

More & more kit is designed around WiFi access nowadays - in order for it to be able to communicate with the manufacturers' servers, for things such as software upgrades, fault finding, remote mode change setting & user-control etc. Consider equipment siting WRT WiFi strength, or if your router/access point(s) is too far away from your chosen equipment, consider the need for extending your WiFi by use of access points (APs). I actually brought a dedicated one much closer to our garage/utility, in order to have all of the Internet of Things (IoT) equipment on the same one, and with no signal strength issues. Remember, if your AP needs to be sited somewhere remote, where there's no easy mains access to power it (like many lofts) have a look into using routers & APs which have PoE capability. This stands for Power over Ethernet, and allows your remote AP to be powered by a small current which is supplied by a capable router, and is delivered via the ethernet cable which takes the WiFi between the two components. VERY handy!

One final consideration - when planning your system(s) consider siting your pieces of kit as close-as-possible to your main consumer unit(s). Some of these large consumers have maximum cable runs published; as a general rule of thumb with electricity, always plan to keep cable runs as short as possible.

I hope that these little nuggets that I've collated over the years, may be of help to others who are are in the planning phase of their systems.

All the best

Sykes

Sykes Very good. My home has just turned 2 so I have 100amp main fuse thankfully. IF my ev arrives there will be times over night when my home is drawing 7kw to charge the car, 3kw to charge the home battery, 3kwh for the heating and 200 - 400watt for background appliances. 13.5kw+

I might put the smart meter face down when that day come so I don't see the usage spinning!

Sykes Spot on. I had a full survey prior to the EV Charger install (initially a dumb EO). Similar with the Zappi which they wound down because I only had 6mm cable interlinking the garage

When I had my battery fitted I wanted it in the garage but the installers explained in detail why I couldn't have the Zappi and battery on that cable. The power would just be too much.

THALL
Oooh - a nice, new shiny system - very good!
As long as you're on a low ToU overnight tariff, you're bound to be doing better than if you were still running an ICE vehicle, and come the summer months... 😃

mjkelly5a
Yes - it's horses for courses, isn't it; you can only do the best with what you're dealt.
I just thought it might be useful to anyone starting out, to share some of my learning points, and point out some of the banana skins.
No doubt, you've considered bumping-up the cable size to your garage; cost probably prohibitive, is it?

Sykes Well had the battery and second solar installed end of July and August and September were negative months on my electric bill. And doing the math the EV should cost about £3 - £4 in electric compared to £45 a week for a tank of petrol. But I am keen to cover the last of my roof with panels and get a second battery. But I need to slow down the spending! Might retrain as a lorry driver for that 50k a year to pay for things faster :-)

THALL Might retrain as a lorry driver for that 50k a year to pay for things faster :-)

Very good!
Yes - bonkers times we live in, now...

Having had our Peugeot e2008 since March, I've religiously kept the figures in a spreadsheet (can't beat a spreadsheet!) and whilst I realise we're going into the most challenging time of the year, our running costs to-date (purely on electricity) are so far 0.57 pence per mile! That is on the up, as my wife hasn't managed to work from home as much recently - so we've only been able to charge off the roof during the weekends, really - but it's still very god, in my book.

Sykes Extremely good. Not sure my maths is right based on your cost per mile though. In reviews of the id3 ive order they suggest 3.5 miles per kwh bad weather and 4.1 - 4.5 in good weather. I do 60 miles per day, my cheap rate is 5.5p per kwh. So a bad weather day will get me 1.56p per mile and good weather 1.22p. I assume your costs include your own generation?

THALL
I think your maths is probably spot-on.
Yes - my figures include charging directly from the PV (lovely jubbley, Rodders!).
Since March, my wife's managed to work from home a good deal of the time; generally, she managed to be home on alternate days - meaning that we could charge off the roof at the weekends, use that for Monday's work mileage, charge again off the roof on the Tuesday whilst she worked from home, work mileage Wednesday, and so on...
On my spreadsheet, I log each charge, and whether it's PV, cheap, ESS-augmented etc.

Of course, now we're into the cold months, many days I'm only just re-charging the ESS batteries, so even if the car's home, I know we might struggle to charge it, and therefore give priority to the ESS, which I want for the evening 'Golden hour' in the kitchen.
Typical today, though; the sun's full-on, and the EV's nowhere to be seen! The roof's doing 5.5 kW, I've already done a load of washing, and the dehumidifier's on full-blast to dry the laundry, and I'll STILL have the ESS full within an hour or so.
Looks like I'll be doing the ironing later - to at least use a few chunks of 3kW.
There are downsides with having plenty of PV... 😅

Sykes Sounds like an ideal system. Sadly my East West system does not provide that much. 2.4kw East 4.6kw West is currently only doing 1.4kw. Just can't match a south facing roof. But like you have mentioned, come the better months the car will charge for pretty much free. My best PV day in August was 33kw of which 21kw went into the grid which will go into the car (providing that generation is on a Saturday or Sunday). If I ever get the bloody car! Current estimate is another 16 - 19 weeks.

Can we stop talking about generation please...currently doing 500W from our 2kW east / 2kW west even though it's really sunny here in Worcestershire the sun is just too low for us this time of year. I need to get the roof turned 90 degrees!

Sykes Yes it was a whole £1500 as an estimate. But the addition of an outside cupboard, to close in the battery and inverter, which is now sealed has meant the battery temp is staying quite high: didn't drop below 14c last night compared to 7 last week.

But it is sun facing so i'll have to be careful in the summer that it doesn't overheat! 🙄 1st world issues 😫

judgepd Yep same here the low sun puts the garage in the shade from the house roof. However I had solar edge fitted to my 9 year old 3.2kw PV, at the same time as the battery, and I am 30% up on last year. The difference out of the panels is really noticeable.

mjkelly5a Ours is a SolarEdge system and I think it does pretty well for the orientation of the house. A very close neighbour has a 3.5kW south facing system that does pretty much the same as our 4 kW E/W split.

mjkelly5a judgepd Do you think the cost is worth it? Do you have much shading across individual panels?

THALL Our system is about 8 years old and I don't really remember having a conversation about options at the time, it was just what the installer suggested...not really very helpful. I think they suggested it due to it being split E/W.

judgepd I am pondering how much benefit solaredge would give with cloud shading etc. I am on the verge of ordering an upgrade to my East facing array but not sure to look at solaredge again or not.

mjkelly5a I assume from this that it would have been alot of disruption to pull a new cable through to service the garage and allow power to be returned to the main CU. Is the cable buried / not easy to access. If it's only under floors through walls etc, i'm surprised at the £1500, what would they be using pure gold busbars the whole way!
THALL It sounds like you are investing more in decarbonising than Shell and BP combined 😆

judgepd Don't worry, I'm in the same boat. Unless I can rent my neighbours roof next door. Their side of the building has East/South facing at 105 & 195.

THALL If I ever get the bloody car! Current estimate is another 16 - 19 weeks.

Frustrating!
I was the same when I was being messed about by my installer - for my ESS. Trouble is, all you seem to read about is other people getting on well with their purchases, which makes you chomp at the bit even more, doesn't it!
Hope you don't give up (although I remember you saying that the delay would have an impact on your trade-in); I'm sure that the EV route is the future, and as time goes on, things like the currently-poor charging infrastructure, and relatively poor ranges on many EVs, will get ironed out.
Fingers crossed.

Salibaba Feels like it. Though another 2.4kw of panels and I will be out of roof space, a second battery and out I will be out of space on the wall, EV (if it comes) then I'm done. Unless GE bring out a better inverter and bigger more condensed batteries and some kind of "upgrade replacement" program I am done. Hell I've even cut my meat consumption down to Sunday lunch and the occasional takeaway!

judgepd Can we stop talking about generation please...currently doing 500W from our 2kW east / 2kW west even though it's really sunny here in Worcestershire the sun is just too low for us this time of year. I need to get the roof turned 90 degrees!

🤣

mjkelly5a Yes it was a whole £1500 as an estimate. But the addition of an outside cupboard, to close in the battery and inverter, which is now sealed has meant the battery temp is staying quite high: didn't drop below 14c last night compared to 7 last week.

But it is sun facing so i'll have to be careful in the summer that it doesn't overheat! 🙄 1st world issues 😫

Sounds like a pretty good all-round solution, that.
As you say - just need to watch the summer performance.

Great points about integrity of older property wiring and a consumer unit upgrade. If a sparky is doing their job properly they need to test all the circuits that are part of that consumer unit replacment potentially identifying any latent issues.

DNOs can refuse permission to add an EV charger to a property as it needs to be applied for, much the same as above 4kw of PV. As more people get them installed it will become more difficult to get approval.

You really need to understand your energy usage when getting a system installed, what's your peak demand per appliance how often or long does it run for? For most installs with a battery you are only going to get 3kw of support from that battery - any electric shower is going to bust that limit.

DNO fuses, an old property does not necessarily equal a smaller fuse, 1971 build for me with original DNO fuse rated at 100A.

You can never have too much PV (although the GE stuff can only handle 6.5kwp maximum).

The way you consume electricity will change between summer and winter if you have PV and a battery - I'm fully charging my battery on Go overnight and running a cycle on the dishwasher alongside charging the EV and occasionally the washing machine. I've seen a 13.5kw load at points for reference.

Summer and that's going to be round the other way, no battery charging and schedule dishwasher and washing machine to run during the day - probably still have to charge car a bit overnight though.

You can get a FIT payment from any provider - it doesn't have to be your supplier. There are some 4p FIT providers out there so it's only 1p less per kWh than the overnight Go rates. This helps balance those winter sun days costs.

My original estimates for my usage seem to be holding up, EV was a bit of an unknown factor and I don't fully understand the impact of decent generation as yet. That said with an E208 completing around 12000 miles per year I'm expecting a total fuel bill for the entire household including gas (CH and DHE only) at around £1200 as a maximum including standing charges. That should be around £2750 for the actual energy consumption at 21p a kWh.

We got round the issue by programming the Zappi to charge our EV 0030-0330 and then 'top up' the battery 0330-0430 so we are at 100% for the household rush hour. We lose 1 hour of battery time but its not impacted our car range. Just means 1 or 2 extra charges per month.

Not worked out a summer solution yet. We hope to charge the car from the PV on a daytime trickle. Top tips and advice welcome :-)

AmandaHuddleston Myenergi told to set the default charge mode to eco+ to use solar only then use the schedule boost charge for the cheap rate. Though I still do not have my ev so can not confirm this works, but I did explain to them what kit I have etc before ordering the charger.

judgepd we made 10kw yesterday SSE facing in sunny north Wales - almost the shortest day. Cant wait to see what we will get int summer and get charging our EV!

Worth noting that if you also follow myenegi's guide to keeping a solar charge going by setting a delay option for 90 seconds it will pinch energy from the house battery if you have the charge cut off times the same, ie 0430.

I've got around it by charging the car (as required) on a Zappi app scheduled charge from 0030 to 0430 and setting charge to 100% on the GivEnergy battery from 0030 to 0435. You only have 15 minute options on the myenegi app and this hasn't failed (ie an empty house battery) since I set this.

Hopefully by summer the integration beta stuff will he up and running.

Sykes Thanks for this post. today i finally got to play. There is enough solar and I am at home 😀

Avoid Both: Solar at 1.6kwh. My car charged (1.2kw), the house was fed (0.2kw) and my battery was fluctuating between mainly idle and draining a small amount (0.2kw). I put this down to maybe the MGL setting at 60% was topping up cos the solar 'available' (after the house drain) was below 1.4kWh

Avoid Drain: House was fed and the Battery was charging with the remainder. the Zappi was idle. My question: What will happen when the battery is at 100%. Will it a. Start to charge the car or b. Send the solar to the grid.

mjkelly5a Depends on your MGL setting. So MGL 60% means you only need 860w of solar and the rest will suck from the grid if on ECO. So if under 860w solar and your home battery is full then yes it will send the solar to the grid.

mjkelly5a EDIT: Avoid Both: Hmmm at 2.3kwh solar. The house was fed, the battery had minimal charge up to 0.4kwh and the car was charging at 1.4 - 1.6 kWh!

THALL Good way of looking at it.

mjkelly5a What is the export margin set to on your zappi?

My setup is
ECO+ mode all the time
Export margin set to 0w
Idea being the house comes first, anything between house and 1.4kw will go into the battery, if house is using 200w say and my generation hits 1600w for 30 seconds+ then the zappi will start if the ev is connected.

If solar surplus is under 1400w and the battery is fully then and surplus up to 1399w will end up in the grid though that should be very little.

Don't have the EV yet but this is what I have setup so could be entirely wrong!

mjkelly5a mjkelly5a EDIT: Avoid Both: Hmmm at 2.3kwh solar. The house was fed, the battery had minimal charge up to 0.4kwh and the car was charging at 1.4 - 1.6 kWh!

Firstly, glad to hear you're finding the post useful. Isn't it great when you finally have all the kit, and the sun begins to give you a meaningful amount of PV to experiment with?!

Personally, I only very rarely take my zappi off 'Avoid both.' I find it's the best setting for our set-up.

In your scenario above, I'd say it was working as advertised; the priority will always be the house - not sure what your baseload is, but of course there are many things that can instantly change the house required load without you being aware - things like a fridge/freezer coming on, hair straighteners, hoover, central heating pump (without the boiler firing up, so you don't actually hear anything!)...
Once the house is satisfied, the zappi will try to take the excess - as long as it's >1.4kW (I have my MGL set to 100%, otherwise you can end up taking too much expensive power from the grid, which I always try to avoid). TBH, even at 1.4kW charge rate, the EV takes for ever to charge, and nowadays, I find myself preferring to get all of that 'small' power into the ESS - to release later when the house really needs it. Also, in ECO+ when the sun's such that you're on the cusp of +/- 1.4kW, some EVs see the constant switching on-and-off, as a failing power supply, and will prevent further charge - without you knowing it! Worse than that, the zappi reports this condition as "Charge complete" which can be a tad embarrassing when you jump into your EV, to do a 100 mile journey, only to find it's only got sufficient battery for 30 miles. Ouch!

Another thing to bear in mind, is that the myenergi app (which I assume you're using) only updates at approx 5 second intervals, and even then will only be accurate to 0.1 - 0.3 kW (in my experience) - particularly at the lower current flows. This means that one is better off taking a broad view of what's happening at any one moment in time. For example, I don't bother worrying about the zappi's calculated figures, unless they start to be out by perhaps >0.4 kW for any length of time.

Was finally able to try my zappi yesterday and I'm a bit puzzled to see (or not) that the energy it used overnight doesn't show on the GivEnergy portal. I charged from 0:30 to 4:30 but on the portal it's not showing. I would have expected to see it under home load. Is this normal?

judgepd I would have expected it to show as grid in/home load etc

judgepd mine shows as house load!

judgepd Either your portal data hasn't refreshed to cover the period, or the route from the DNO Meter to your Zappi doesn't pass through your "meter" CT. On my Givenergy App (and portal), the Zappi load appears as House load and my Zappi app, shows where the power is coming (grid or PV/Battery system).

judgepd Was finally able to try my zappi yesterday and I'm a bit puzzled to see (or not) that the energy it used overnight doesn't show on the GivEnergy portal. I charged from 0:30 to 4:30 but on the portal it's not showing. I would have expected to see it under home load. Is this normal?

I must confess, since installation 6 months ago, the figures on my dual 8.2, dual 3.0 inverter system, according to the GivEnergy portal, are always bonkers, so I pay no attention to them. GivEnergy keep promising some great firmware upgrade which is supposed to solve many of the nuances of the dual inverter/battery systems, but I'm still waiting...
Same with the app; probably fine if you have a single inverter/battery system, but double-up on both, and it's next-to-useless.

That having been said, I agree with your rationale - any current draw that's grid-supplied, be it normal tariff, or cheap rate, should indicate on your graphs & data.
I don't suppose it could have come from batteries instead, could it? Don't know whether you have any, obvs.

Good to hear you got the zappi to work overnight. was it on a scheduled boost?
Many EV owners have reported issues with their EVs failing to charge on schedules, but we've never had any issues with our Peugeot e2008. With all the reports I've read, it seems very much an EV issue - with particular models - but it oft gets blamed on the poor old zappi, which I happen to think is a great bit of kit.

Which EV do you have?

Tim I think you've got it spot on there. When the zappi was fitted there was another set of meter tails run to another small consumer unit so I think the givenergy system doesn't see that usage. I wonder if I can move that clamp maybe. Just to prove (to myself) that I'm not going crazy here are screenshots of the givenergy portal and the myenergi portal from today showing that I have magic electricity.

Sykes It's also an e2008 but it's only temporary until we get our Ioniq 5. As an aside, is there a way to limit the max SOC in the e2008? Left the zappi in eco+ and set a scheduled boost which seemed to work fine.

https://ibb.co/Q9Ftm7M

https://ibb.co/sPS3V2f

On the e2008 question, no I am not aware of a SOC limiter. I have a Mokka E coming in May and that is one of my biggest frustration over the id3 I was meant to get. What I have done is set the boost schedule to put in 18kw which is just over the calculated consumption for my daily commute. But really all EV's should have a SOC limiter! If they want you to keep the battery between 20 and 80% charge it would really help if they provided a tool to do it.

@THALL Agreed, in the handbook it says multiple times to not keep charging it to 100% but there seems to be no method to achieve this that I can find in the car itself. One other off topic issue I find weird is that the handbrake is not automatic (unless I'm missing something).

Automatic release you mean? Don't recall that from my test drive. But I was more into the id3 than the mokka so not fully up to speed on all the features. I only changed my order last week as don't want to wait another 18/24 months for the id3. Maybe I should book another 24 hour test drive in the mokka. Though not sure what they would think about me having a test drive in a car I have already ordered......

judgepd Sykes It's also an e2008 but it's only temporary until we get our Ioniq 5. As an aside, is there a way to limit the max SOC in the e2008? Left the zappi in eco+ and set a scheduled boost which seemed to work fine.

Must admit - for our first EV, we're very pleased with this car - which is returning pretty much exactly the MP kWh which we set as an absolute minimum, in order for HWSBO to agree to using it for work. We decided it needed to be capable of a real 150 mile range on a full battery, which meant it would manage her max possible daily travelling, without the need for plugging in anywhere. It's pretty much nailed that figure through the winter months, and of course it's lovely to be coming out of that depressing hole, and into more favourable temperatures & solar levels. We've managed to run it at a fuel cost of 0.75 pence per mile - including any rare max-rate tariff charging, cheap rate (thanks to Octopus!), and PV. The only cost I've not included, is the daily standing charge.
Compared to an ICE vehicle - particularly at the current bonkers fuel prices - we can really see a significant ROI on our kit - even the batteries.

WRT limiting SoC, I'm afraid I'm unsure. What I do know is, that any setting of an EV's on-board software can (not necessarily does) affect the zappi's functionality. bearing this in mind, I keep everything controlled at the zappi end.
I've never needed to only charge to a certain SoC, but if I did, I think I'd be inclined to do some man-maths to calculate the required number of units required (@ 10% = circa 5kWh for a brand new battery) then apply your zappi's max charge rate (mine seems to stabilise at 7.1 kW on a scheduled charge) to get the time required, and adjust my scheduled window times accordingly. You just need to allow for the final 30 mins or so dropping to a charge rate of about 3kW - but of course, this is only for the final 20% or so, and to be accurate, you'd need to calculate whether or not your target SoC ate into this portion.

The car only came yesterday but it certainly seems very nice inside and it's lovely to drive. It's only going to be doing very low mileage so the max SOC is only out of curiosity rather than any real need to be honest.

@THALL I think what seems to be missing is 'auto hold'. In our other car which is automatic VW Touran, when you pull up at say traffic lights, the handbrake comes on automatically and you can release the foot brake. When you then press the accelerator the handbrake automatically comes off. In the e2008 the handbrake will release automatically when you first start a journey but it seems to be missing the auto hold feature so you need to keep the foot brake depressed at traffic lights or press the 'P' button each time.

judgepd Our EV is a Zoe which has some API support on Github and Node-RED. Using the API, you can query the vehicle SoC (amongst other things) and you could use the Zappi API to put it into stop mode when you get to 80%. I'm more concerned with getting the vehicle charged than I am stopping it! It seems that every day the sun is shining, the car is parked at better-half's work and when she's at home, it's raining or dark. Fortunately, there's about two weeks-worth of commuting in the battery, so it doesn't take many sunny days to keep on top of the charge.

Tim It seems that every day the sun is shining, the car is parked at better-half's work and when she's at home, it's raining or dark.

Tim
Isn't that the truth!
I'm sure that the EV gods track these vehicles, and arrange the weather accordingly - to achieve max frustration! 🤣

judgepd I think that might be a VW feature. I currently drive a 2 year old Ford and do not have an automatic handbrake like that. It does hold the foot brake for a moment for hill start assist but that's not the same obviously.

Your Zappi installer should have put the grid monitoring clamp on the meter tail live output and the same with the GE installer. So you should have 2 CT clamps next to each other so they can both see the grid import and export correctly.

Zappi wise I'm just doing a manual calculation to get to a rough SoC around 80% via the boost setting. It's a labor intensive task as it needs setting up every night. Any PV generation is charging above 80% but again I try to factor in expected use when setting the boost charge.

I've got the E208 showing it's data in Home Assistant (PSA car controller add in) and that does show me all the stuff I need alongside an SoC limiter at 80%. I've not been able to get that to work yet and it needs some fiddling about with the yaml script to correct some formatting errors and shift it over to miles not km (that's in the code already).

That all said it does all work aside from that and I'm planning on automating the precondition function based on the forecast to stop it running when it's not frosty over winter for example.

The next refinement would be to overnight charge based on expected PV the following day, it'll be a switch option as most days the car is not parked up at home.

yandards The zappi one is fine as that electrician knew what he was doing. The 'house load' CT clamp that shows on the GE system was put in the easiest place by the battery installer as from memory it's inside the consumer unit so it now can't see the usage from the zappi as the incoming meter tails have been split before the consumer unit. I might just try to ignore it as it all works fine it just doesn't look quite right on the GE portal.

(In reality I won't be able to ignore it and will end up getting someone in to put it in the correct place 😆)

judgepd (In reality I won't be able to ignore it and will end up getting someone in to put it in the correct place 😆)

... Yup! 🤣

Sykes I have an e Niro and the Zappi, once programmed, has only failed me once in 18 months and that was a burnt out PCB. It was an older 'stock' zappi which should not have been installed. MyEnrgi replaced it and gave the installer a bit of a talking too!

On the MyEnergi forum the failing cars are legendary VW ID3 being the most notable when it was released. They failed to follow the international charging standards which caused a number of smart chargers to fail.. VW eventually, after much 'we are the great VAG group so we must know' finally worked with myEnergi and sorted it via SW updates.

THALL Quote: 'But really all EV's should have a SOC limiter! If they want you to keep the battery between 20 and 80% charge it would really help if they provided a tool to do it'

You can set the zappi to only deliver a certain amount of charge. But I am surprised to hear that some EVs don't have that facility. My tesla and E Niro both have it.

Have you 'lurked' on the Facebook Mokka E page or ask a question there?

THALL We have an auto hold on the e Niro.

@THALL as the mokka is part of the Stellantis group it'll be on the same platform as the E2008 etc.

There is no facility to set an SoC charge via either the car or manufacturers app. They only recently added the SoC as a percentage value to the dash display on the E208 but only on newer cars.

As its a 45kwh usable battery I've just been charging using the Zappi schedule daily and doing a bit of light maths, an hour and half is about a quarter of the battery charge so it's fairly easy to work out.

yandards the math is easy enough but I don't think we should need to do it. Factoring in power curves from the charger vs battery % and cold weather and unplanned trips. All of that means setting the charge the night before compared to just setting a soc % in the car. Plus when the car is plugged in at home over the weekend and the sun is out I will need to remember to disconnect the car at various times. Its just all little things that add up for what should be a simple feature to add to the car. Especially when they say to not overcharge the battery and try to keep it at 20 80. The other one I spotted was the suggestion to not charge it everyday, which is fine if you only do 20 miles a day. I dunno, by the time I actually get an ev they might add the feature via software update!

THALL agreed it should be simple and 'car side' limited!

That said I'm not that bothered if I end up fully charged via PV over a weekend either as the car BMS needs a full charge occasionally.

As there is an 8 year or 100k warranty on the battery down to 70% of its original capacity I'm fairly confident my charging regime will be ok. Thinking behind that is the degredation will be worst case, ie all 100kw rapid DC charging and extreme temperature plus a margin of error on top. Stellantis don't want to be forking out for battery pack degredation warranty claims.

There is an add on that has an 80% SoC toggle in Home Assistant for the E208/2008 I've yet to try it out though but have the car reporting etc via HA.

yandards I asked Vauxhall about this, with everyone saying keep between 20 and 80% for best bettery life. Vauxhall says "not really an issue to keep the Mokka at 100% anyway as the float built into the pack means it never goes above 96% of actual capacity" So yeah, I will adjust timed charge so its not forcing 100% and not worry about it for the rest of its 4 year life (i will not be keeping the car past 4 years)

THALL I do wonder how much of the information is based on actual data from modern batteries versus Gen 1 Leafs for example? The old rumour about fully discharging mobile phone batteries and rechargeable battery memory is still kicking around despite it not being the case for years now.

On the Zappi front I had it draining the house battery again yesterday after setting the charge delay option to 90 seconds from 10 seconds. The function on the Zappi is a user set variable to allow for a period of charging to continue if it starts grid import.

I've tweaked it up from 10 seconds as it was disconnecting too frequently and the car was locking its charge out when a cloud went over, odd day yesterday in terms of PV as it was enough to support a charge but up and down a lot.

Battery started supporting the car charging about 1300 and I noticed the battery drain about 1545, not a huge issue as it was only down to 75% by then as it was mostly PV supported.

It's annoying as I don't want to keep having to keep an eye on the charge status just because its cloudy in case the car locks the charger out nor do I want it draining the home battery either!

Might try tweaking the grid export margin up a bit and the charge delay down, there has to be a sweet spot for it.

yandards I have seen in the myenergi forums people saying set the wait period to 60 seconds or even 90 seconds due to cloud cover etc. Export margin suggested was 100w for people with home storage batteries. I currently have my wait time set to 30 seconds and export of 0w, but no EV to test with yet! Is your zappi in ECO+ mode?

I had my zappi set to a wait time of 20 seconds yesterday, with a MGL of 80% (I worked out this is the lowest I can go without it then costing more than a cheap overnight charge) and the supply grid battery setting on 'avoid drain' yesterday and it worked perfectly without once pulling from the battery.

yandards On the Zappi front I had it draining the house battery again yesterday

@yandards

Have you got the zappi set up as per my original post in this thread?
'Avoid drain' or 'Avoid both' should prevent any ESS drain, whilst charging (but not in 'Fast' mode, or during scheduled charging).
Sorry if we've already covered this with you - it's quite a long thread, and I can't recall whether or not you have a battery CT feeding the zappi...

Sykes hybrid inverter so it doesn't play nicely with the Zappi on the avoid drain etc options.

I've increased the export margin to 150w from 100w, there should be threshold where that will prevent battery discharge, I just need to find it.

Forum signatures would be useful in this case!

yandards Can't work our how to link to my post from earlier today on another thread, but we have the same setup as you (Hybrids/batteries and Zappi). We've set the Zappi to Eco+ mode with 100% MGL and to start to charge the EV (when it's plugged in!) when export exceeds 1400W with a time delay so it has to be at that level for 30 seconds before the Zappi starts pulling the power. That gives the Hybrids time to respond to clouds/house load etc. and ensures the house batteries are fully charged before the EV. Charging the EV is something we do when there's excess generation as we only use it for local travel and it has a range of about 200 miles.

Tim great to hear this setup is working for you. Did you also have to set a minimum grid export of 50w/100w or do you find the 30 seconds delay works well enough for you?

yandards hybrid inverter so it doesn't play nicely with the Zappi on the avoid drain etc options.

Doh! Didn't spot that...

yandards Forum signatures would be useful in this case!

Yes - I've mooted this very point, several times with GE over the past 6 months. The response I've normally had is that to enable signatures, wouldn't be as easy as one might think.
Like you, I think it would make life much easier, to be able to easily see members' set-ups.

Huntzie Yes, should have said that we set a 50W minimum export as well so that the Zappi will only take surplus in excess of 50W. I've seen on the MyEnergi app that the Zappi output can fall from 7.2kW to say 2.4kW when a cloud passes over, then it ramps back up when in full sunlight again. Using this setting ensures that the batteries won't drain to charge the car.

Tim @THALL same setup, always run the Zappi in ECO+ at 100%, delay charge set to 60 seconds, up from 10 seconds and I've run it longer before up to the maximum 120 seconds previously. That caused some issues with the timed charge process on the GE side as the battery then picked up the Zappi demand during ramp down!

Like you I also get the house battery side recharged first, then with the setup working normally the Zappi sees the grid export margin and once it hits the required minimum (now 1.6kw export due to the margin settings) it starts charging the car.

Yesterday was a bit of an oddity, I think due to the transient PV generation the export was there long enough to reset the Zappi and then with PV dropping below the 1.4kw minimum plus the charge delay timer (which also stops the charge being dropped if the export margin is gone, albeit its an odd cumulative timer looking at it running on the Zappi display) meant the battery infilled for a bit, then the PV ramped up again resulting in the Zappi seeing export and gradually resetting the charge delay timer.

I know that setting 50w of export isn't enough to get the Zappi to let go of the battery, obviously the higher the export margin the more PV you need to sustain a charge on the car which isn't ideal either. If I drop the charge delay too low it stops the charge too frequently and after 5 restarts the car locks the charger out. There is a happy medium there somewhere!

My own experiments with the GE side system responsiveness show that inverter ramp up/down based on PV generation is very fast with negligible losses/import to cover that process over a day - 393wh yesterday during that highly variable PV and some large consumer loads on top of the car charging. Previous experiment on a predicted stable PV generation day showed similar figures with similar transient loads.

yandards I have just arranged to borrow a Mokka E for a few hours this weekend. The forecast says the sun will be beaming so will test my charge settings.

THALL I have just arranged to borrow a Mokka E for a few hours this weekend. The forecast says the sun will be beaming so will test my charge settings.

Bet you can't wait to have an EV to play with, at last! Been a long time coming. Enjoy! 😀

THALL Better make sure the garage or wherever you are borrowing the vehicle from doesn't fully charge it for you otherwise you'll have to drive round for a couple of hours to drain the battery and by the time you get home, it'll be raining, obviously 🤣

Tim and by the time you get home, it'll be raining, obviously

... Obvs! 😆

Sykes Only a loaner car, mine is due 30th May apparently. I cancelled the id3 order as the new eta is March 2023......

THALL
Yes - I gathered that, from some of your other posts; fingers crossed for end of May...

Loaner-or-not, I imagine you'll still be pleased to be putting your zappi to the test on a real vehicle, though. How's it been going?
Lovely sunny day here today, up t'north - AND the vehicle's home for a change. Charging at max chat off the roof, at the moment - and still sending some to the ESS! 😀

Well following a call from the dealer a couple of hours a go they seem to think the car will turn up earlier than planned which will be amazing if true. They are expecting a delivery May 9th!

I would offer to put some charge in my neighbour's model 3 but they never seem to use it. It just sits there waiting to be cleaned every week. Its such a shame ☹️

So far the system is generating a solid 2.5kw which is less than yesterday, but only 0.1kw of grid use so far today even with my son at home who appears to have just put the oven on based on current consuming data! Oh how lovely to be a full time uni student.

THALL
09th May - that would be good! 2 or 3 mowings of the lawn, and you could be really putting the ol' zappi through its paces!

Sykes Not started on the lawn yet. Wife says its too early, but the electric mower is cleaned and ready to suck up some solar!

THALL
We actually did our first cut on the lawns yesterday. Despite being up t'north, it's been dry underfoot for days, and yesterday was just like a spring day, so we gave it a go.
Nothing like that first smell of cut grass...

judgepd Just discovered a slight bonus (could be a downside) to my installation. As my givenergy system can't see the zappi usage it's impossible for the zappi to drain the battery no matter what settings I have the zappi on.

judgepd Guess it depends how much spare battery capacity you have and it does limit the option to boost the car charge a bit using the battery before going out in the morning.

Got a decent days generation expected tomorrow with the car at home so see how it goes with the PV charging side of life.

yandards Yeah, I might have to give in and get it corrected. I was thinking in the summer when I end the day with a full battery that I could dump most of it to the car overnight but at the moment I couldn't do that. I know it won't add much but it all adds up.

judgepd You see that is why I am now considering a second battery after deciding it wasn't worth it. Because of how the charge will work in boost mode overnight, when the house will not need much power in the Summer I could dump a lot more solar generation into the car. In fact thinking about it peak Summer everyday use of the car could be free..... Again I need more data before deciding.

So today's Zappi fun, it's been a while shifting the fog this morning but I've currently got a Zappi having the majority of PV with a battery that has both charges and discharged to support the Zappi.

Normally I'd expect the battery to take all the available PV first but for some unknown reason the Zappi is taking it.

Again it's been a variable generation day so far due to the weather so it looks like the battery is supporting the demand to the household with the Zappi holding onto the charge and once it gets hold the battery it'll keep it.

Will try tweaking the charge/discharge timer down to 30 seconds tonight when I get in.

yandards @Tim having your woes but i can't figure out where the 'delay charge' in seconds is on the Zappi settings even reviewing the manual i cant see that terminology or any other setting in seconds.. am i blind? Can you tell me where the setting is please?

smunning having your woes but i can't figure out where the 'delay charge' in seconds is on the Zappi settings even reviewing the manual i cant see that terminology or any other setting in seconds.. am i blind? Can you tell me where the setting is please?

On mine (V2) it's pizza box (menu)/charge settings/ECO+ settings.

I think you have to do it on the physical unit (unless you're using API etc).

HTH

Sykes Brilliant thanks!
Had my install commissioned yesterday so learning the ropes.
Hybrid inverter wanting to charge car and battery in Oct Go hours but woke up to a flat battery today.
Eco++ delay set to 30 now, Supply grid export set to 50kw, Zappi Boost schedule set to Oct Go hours, GivEn Batt set to charge in Oct Go hours.

Lets see what happens tonight!

smunning Brilliant thanks!

Pleasure. Thanks for the response.
It often takes a while to get everything set up just nicely - for your own requirements, and to iron-out all the surprise banana skins! Even then, when you think you've got it all sussed, all your kit will bite you in the behind, by throwing in a Mickey Finn, once in a while!
Good luck for tonight.
Fingers crossed... 😆

Sykes I've just come back from a trip to Austria in my Campervan. I left the car plugged in.

The Zappi, on 'Avoid Both' put 20Kw into the car and the battery was charged to 80% most nights.

I am at the stage of understanding this now. If i leave the car plugged in on 'Avoid Both', MGL at 100%, the car will charge from solar when 1.4-1.8 kwh is available (after the house takes it's share). When if it goes to 2-3kwh the house takes it's cut, car and the battery charge. later on in the day when the sun goes down the car stops and the battery get up to 80% SOC on most occasions 100% on one occasion.

Yesterday I switched off the charging from the grid SOC was 60% at 11pm, the car took 5kw yesterday & this SOC morning it's at 42%! 😀 So lets hope for some sun today.

I have a Solaredge PV inverter and zappi, with two 8.2 GivEnergy batteries and an AC 3.0 inverter on order.

I am thinking about adding another PV array.
Option 1: Add a GivEnergy hybrid inverter for the new PV array hooked up to one of the 8.2 batteries.
Option 2: Add another Solaredge inverter for the new PV array and a second GivEnergy AC 3.0 inverter for the second battery.

The second option obviously costs more and has the DC>AC>AC>DC conversion losses to consider.

But is the first option likely to make using the zappi for charging from both excess solar and battery discharge (more) awkward?

Our house only needs 5/6 kWh on average during peak hours, so optimistically in the sunny months I would like to discharge some of the stored excess solar from the battery to the car during off-peak hours (supplementing the 7.4 kW scheduled boost with grid import). Am I going to need to implement my own automation to enable/disable battery discharge and toggle the zappi's 'avoid' settings?

LeiChat I would choose option 1 for the reasons you give. If you're not on FIT, you could cancel the AC3.0 order and replace the Solaredge inverter with a second hybrid connected to your second battery.

Tim Thanks. I should have mentioned the original array is on FiT.

LeiChat you can keep your FIT whilst replacing AC with hybrid. You will need to have net metering. If you use EPS circuits that needs its own meter.
I have done that. Changed from Samil inverter to GE 5Kw Hybrid. It took ages to get SSE to sort it out as it was new to them as I had EPS configured too, but I did get there in the end

retaining FIT is not a constraint to changing to hybrid

Eventually multiple GE inverters will act as a single plant. Its not there yet, but hopefully will be at some point. At that time management and control of them will be easier than mixed manufacturers

Seye LeiChat Good to know that you can replace the original-install inverter with a hybrid and still retain FIT. Nett metering should be achievable if the MCS meter has both import (to battery) and export registers, but I guess you need to engage with whoever is paying FIT to ensure that they agree that the installation still complies.

Seye Thanks for the info but I would rather not change the existing kit.
In our next home I will definitely consider adding kit from a single manufacturer and it sounds like GivEnergy (and maybe myenergi) are both working towards a full suite of hardware for EV charging, hot water tank and battery storage.

For now though, ignoring the existing Solaredge inverter... with a two GivEnergy inverter setup do they both need CT clamps to monitor solar generation and grid import/export? Or does one inverter act as master? Does that depend on the GivEnergy inverters both being AC or Hybrid, or is having one of each not an issue?

Trying to understand what will and won't be possible with regards to zappi charging. Is it still able to charge with excess solar once the batteries are full? Is it able to do scheduled boosts during off peak hours, from grid and/or from battery?

LeiChat Each hybrid inverter needs its own CT, I presume that's also the case for an AC3. In my case, each CT connects to a DIN Rail-mounted meter (EM115) the size of an MCB, which logs voltage, frequency, import, export and power factor and sends these data to its inverter over Modbus. The inverters work entirely independently and both respond to what they detect in terms of load demand. Having said that, mine work well together and seem to pretty much load share, whether that's exporting to the grid or supplying house load. Mine have been set in ECO mode since they were commissioned in January and supply the house first, charging their attached battery with any surplus from PV. When the inverter output from PV exceeds the house load and the 2.5kW it can send to the battery (or if the battery is fully charged), the excess is exported unless I put the dishwasher/washing machine on to use up the energy.

My Zappi is set to ECO+, with a Minimum Green Level of 100%, requiring an export of 100W for at least 30 seconds before it can start charge. In practice, the export has to be 1400W (the minimum the Zappi can charge at) because of the 100% MGL. I also added a CT for the Zappi which measures the combined output from the inverters. I found that the app gave a much more timely indication of what was happening on the roof than the Givenergy app but that has improved markedly with the local connection.

Other threads have comments from owners who charge their EV overnight on a schedule and set their battery to charge at the same time to prevent discharge to EV. It looks like you can choose whether you actually charge the battery by setting the minimum charge level to 0% if you don't want it to charge (just to hold the charge level), or anywhere up to 100% if you do want it to charge. Similarly (I believe) you can discharge the battery to EV if you just leave it in ECO mode, but there's a danger you could flatten the battery and you need to work out the best compromise for you. My plan is to never charge the EV from battery, but from any surplus solar during the day or overnight on an EV tariff, as my battery capacity will usually be consumed by the house. The overnight EV tariff is so relatively inexpensive, I'd rather just pay that price every time I needed the car charging and charge the house batteries at the same time if the forecast is poor for the next day.

Thanks Tim

In the sunny months, when the batteries reached >85% SoC from solar, I was thinking of scheduling the zappi to charge for 90 minutes each night. With a single 3.0 AC inverter that would add roughly 4.5 kWh to the car from the batteries and 8 kWh from off-peak grid import. Optimistically, with 16.4 kWh of battery that would still leave enough for our average daily consumption.

When the previous days solar generation is low though, it would obviously make more sense just to charge the EV fully from off-peak grid import.

We are fortunate that our daily commute and daily peak demand is relatively small.

If I added a second AC 3.0 or a Hybrid (should I add another PV array) then would need to consider whether both inverters would discharge battery to the EV. Would be handy, if it's possible, to configure only one inverter to discharge during the off-peak hours.

Tim mine work well together and seem to pretty much load share

@LeiChat Just saw this. One battery collapsed from 18% to 0% and starting charging to bring it up to 4%. The other inverter detected the "house load" and discharged its battery to do it.

We ended up on the grid after this until things brightened up this morning but I was impressed that they play so well together. I wonder if I could do a battery calibration by charging one from the other and back again with losses catered for by PV?

Sykes Yes it was. The RoI was tears.

joined today to search up on GE hybrid inverter and a couple of batteries.

Well it's not as straight forward as I thought it might be 🤣

So current setup is Gen1 hybrid inverter and 2 8.4's and 4.8kW of panels. I also have an ASHP installed this last week. Zappi v2 and an Eddi
So I was hoping to charge batteries to 80% and the PV + batteries run the house. Any excess goes to Zappi then the eddi.

Seems this should be possible with some tweaking setting a delay between 30-60 seconds and in ECO+ with 100%

If no EV is charging then the Eddi should take up the excess PV hopefully.

How does scheduled charging overnight work on the zappi in this scenario ? Will it charge from grid and not drain the batteries ?

My other thought is to move the zappi out of the CU and put is in it's own CU fed from a Henley block in between the meter and the house CU. I think this would effective make the Zappi unable to see the batteries but would see the excess PV, I assume that the GE CT will go on the live feed to the House CU ( my PV is being fed into a henley block prior to the house CU)

It would be so much easier if GE would would get the car charger released and an Eddi alternative.

I read a comment saying that despite being AC coupled and set to avoid both, if the Zappi is used for a scheduled charge, it will still pull from the batteries, even with the appropriate CT clamps in place?

O that's a bit of an issue then.

I wonder if it would still manage to do that if it was on it's own CU before the hose CU...

deano charging overnight work on the zappi in this scenario

Just set Givenergy inverter to ECO mode with timed charge during same off-peak window as Zappi and charge to % to the value you want in the batteries at the end of the window. Set Zappi to timed charge for the same window with whatever you need the EV charge setting to be set however you want. The house batteries will feed the house demand from battery (including EV charge) if it enters the timed charge period with battery SoC higher than the charge to %, until it gets to the set value. If the batteries enter the timed charge period with a SoC less than the charge to %, they won't supply anything but charge to that level; the house being fed from grid.

The issue you may have is that the HY5(g1) can charge batteries at 2.5kW, whether from PV, or grid during a timed charge. Depending on the length of your timed charge window, you may struggle to fully charge both batteries from a low SoC. eg, if you have a 6 hour window, you could push in 6x2.5=15kWh to battery. A 4 hour window would be 10kWh.

deano a delay between 30-60 seconds and in ECO+ with 100%

Yes, this setting (100%MGL) should be fine to ensure the Zappi only charges from diverted grid export.

deano Zappi unable to see the batteries

If you only ever use ECO+, time delay, minimum export of more than 50W and 100% MGL, the Zappi won't kick in unless there is grid export. In practice, the export has to exceed 1.4kW as that's the minimum the Zappi can draw and 100% MGL effectively sets this as the minimum export to divert.

Thanks for the explanations / info and details.

I have 2 8.4's and I'm on the Go Faster tariff which will give me 5hrs which will only give me 12.5kW, but I plan to upgrade to a GEN2 hopefully within 12months. Went with the GEN1 as they're available currently.

Thanks for the additional details on the settings for the Zappi, I will set those in the morning interpretation for the panels getting installed.

I do have a GE EV charger on order, but who knows when they're going to be available. As they talk directly to the hybrid inverter then I think they should work well and play nicely with an Eddi, hopefully.

deano Hoping to have an ASHP installed soon.
Which model and size (kW) have you had installed and do you have rough figures for how much it's consuming per hour please?

LeiChat

I went with an ACOND unit (PRO-N) as it is actually an ASHP as opposed to an air con unit in reverse (daikin/samsung etc) this also makes it much more efficient. https://acond.co.uk/

It's not being used for heating yet. Hot water wise it's using 2-3kWh per day for a household of 4, with a teenage daughter who showers for like 30-50 minutes. When it is heating the water t runs at 1kW, so won't put much load on the inverter/batteries.

deano I do have a GE EV charger on order

As you already have a Zappi and Eddi, may I suggest that you wait until others have had the GE unit installed and working with their Givenergy portal for a few months? I'm sure Givenergy won't sell them until they are confident that they will work well but having made the myEnergi investment which does work well, you may find that you don't get much benefit to warrant the cost. Your call.

Tim

That's not a bad call. sticking with the zappi/eddi for now.

The only thing which I see so often is the zappi draining batteries overnight. My PV is being installed on Wednesday so then I'll at least be able to see the GE portal to see ways around that.

The ASHP seem to currently just draw 1kW during the day so during the darker winter months, want the batteries and EV charged together.

The GE portal isn't going to help you stop the zapping discharging the battery really. Ideally you have a ct around the battery that tells the zapping to stop if the battery is discharging. Though that I thinknonly works on AC coupled systems as the inverter is being fed AC so is easy to measure.

dbt85 Setting the Zappi to Eco+ with Minimum Green Level of 100% should only divert what would have been exported otherwise. Another CT round the PV AC output connected back to the Zappi would enable the energy flow to show in the myEnergi app.

Tim

It's a hybrid inverter so the batteries are DC.
I'm putting a CT on PV / AC

Have set the Zappi to ECO+, with a wait time of 20 seconds and MGL 80% and supply grid battery setting to avoid drain. I think these are the best setting I can hope for after much reading of posts in various places.

dbt85

I assumed that I would be able to set hours when the batteries are not to be discharged, maybe this was an oversight on my part.

deano Have you tried setting a Timed Charge with the % set below to the minimum you would like to have at the end of that period?

One downside to this approach is if you vary how long you charge your EV for. So, for example, you might set the GivEnergy inverter Timed Charge for 00:30 to 04:30 (Octopus Go off-peak) and your EV to start charging at 00:35. If the EV then was fully charged by 02:00 the GivEnergy inverter would still not discharge if the battery SoC was at the % that you set as the Timed Charge minimum, so your house load would be pulling from the grid until 04:30.

I like using this approach though, because I can discharge some of the captured PV generation in to the EV but define a minimum battery SoC that I would like to retain for the household demand during the rest of the day.

LeiChat

I've only had it up and running from since Thursday afternoon. First change was to make the eddi the priority.

Like you I have found that for example the give energy battery is charged 100% I set set 85% on the timed charge, it will then stop discharging at this %. So I can effectively set a reserve and let some go into the car.

I'm not to worries about overnight house load as it's only 100w and on go faster it's hardly significant.

Happy with everything so far, currently making 20kWh off a 4.8kW PV at 131Deg's.