What tariff for AIO + EV + solar?

Hello friends,

I have myenergi zappi charger for the car, solar panels on the roof. It's a small array, everything will be consumed in the house, in the summer, any excess will charge the battery I guess. A new addition has joined the team, AIO + Gateway. I also got a smart meter installed, now waiting for my first billing period to end, so I can move out from British Gas prepayment to something better. I've researched a few offers, and I am inclining to get one of the following:

British Gas DD Electric Driver v11
24.42p per kWh
Off peak: between 00:00 and 05:00 (5 hours)
7.901 per kWh
EV charger not recognized, charging must be scheduled in these hours

Intelligent Octopus Go
25.08p per kWh
Off peak: between 23:30 and 05:30 (6 hours)
7.00p per kWh
EV charging anytime, myenergi zappi charger recognized

Other two I don't know much about:
Octopus Flux
Intelligent Octopus Flux - this one recognizes GivEnergy AIO battery.

What you guys think? What should be the best in my scenario? What tariff should I use for export? I can see that I can merge import tariff with the following export tariffs:

• Fixed Outgoing Octopus
• Agile Outgoing Octopus
• Outgoing Lite
• Smart Export Guarantee

That's a lot to take in one go. Any suggestions are most welcome. Thank you!

bRhFDKtjRMK9 What you guys think? What should be the best in my scenario?

Depends very much on your circumstances, but if you qualify for IOG, it's pretty hard to bear.
I think Flux is considered more of a summer tariff than a winter tariff. Good if you export a lot, not so much if you import a lot. With an AIO, you should be able to get a lot of your usage at the off-peak price (assuming you fill the battery overnight on the off-peak rate).

What tariff should I use for export?

Note that Outgoing Lite is only for use with Octopus Go. And you definitely don't want SEG - that's what they pay non-customers. I think most people would go for Fixed Outgoing - Agile Outgoing rarely exceeds the 15p that fixed pays you.

If you switch to Octopus, don't forget to use a referral code to get yourself and the referrer £50 each.

Another option to consider is EON Next Drive - slightly more generous than IOG both for import and export.

I agree with the above, flux and intelligent flux do not appear suitable here if your solar array is small and will mostly feed the house. You need to be exporting more than importing on those tariffs to cover the higher import costs.
Agree re agile export too, better off on the fixed 15p export rate if it's available (depends on which import tariff).
If you'll mostly be importing rather than exporting, you need a cheap rate overnight for a decent amount of hours, so something like Intelligent Go seems sensible - or other suppliers that have similar cheap rates overnight.

Thank you guys, your help is invaluable.
I have compiled the results I was able to find so far. Excluded Octopus tariffs Flux, Intelligent Flux, and Agile, as they are not suitable for my consumption and little export.

You can zoom in easily here:
[https://i.imgur.com/1CCQvu1.png]

During the daytime, I will never be exporting really, because any excess of solar will go back to battery, as the battery will drain some percentage between end of off-peak and full day time.

It seems, that for my circumstances, EON Next Drive Fixed V4 is the best. 7 hours off peak, lowest peak and off-peak prices, and even export prices (if I ever export in the summer).
What you guys think?

One more thing please, there is something I don't quite understand. Export tariffs from Octopus and EON pay for every kWh produced? Or exported to the grid? I am asking because there's an export meter in the attic where solar panels are. To my understanding, if I sign up for SEG, give them all details of that export meter, along with MCS certificate for my installation, then I will be paid for every kWh produced, not exported (as I will consume everything anyway).

bRhFDKtjRMK9 Excluded Octopus tariffs Flux, Intelligent Flux, and Agile, as they are not suitable for my consumption and little export.

Agile import can be worthwhile if you need to import quite a bit throughout the day, and your import exceeds your battery capacity. It’s why I chose it for my heat pump. If your battery will last you the day then agreed other tariffs are cheaper.

It seems, that for my circumstances, EON Next Drive Fixed V4 is the best. 7 hours off peak, lowest peak and off-peak prices, and even export prices (if I ever export in the summer).
What you guys think?

Seems a good choice, a number of people are moving from Octopus Go/Intelligent Go to Drive as they get better rates and don’t have the tie-in of needing a specific car/charger on IOG.

Last question please, because there is something I don't quite understand. Export tariffs from Octopus and EON pay for every kWh produced? Or exported to the grid? I am asking because there's an additional smart meter in the attic where solar panels are. To my understanding, if I sign up for SEG, give them all details of that meter, along with MCS certificate for my installation, then I will be paid for every kWh produced, not exported (as I will consume everything anyway).

Your export tariff is based on what you export to the grid, not what you generate. On the old Feed in Tariff (FIT) solar panel scheme you got paid for (a) what you generate and (b) a ‘deemed export’ on paid at 50% of your generation that you were assumed to have exported.

If all you have on your roof is the FIT array then you can continue to receive the FIT generation and deemed export payments. If you have additional solar or a smart meter fitted then you have to give up the deemed export part of FIT (you’ll still get the measured generation payments) and instead get paid for the actual export.

After the FIT scheme closed the replacement solar payment scheme was called SEG (Smart Export Guarantee), which was paid on what you exported not what you generated. Some people call today’s export payments SEG. If your panels were not registered under the FIT scheme (e.g. installed after about 2018?) then you can only ever get paid for what you export.
It is common for solar installations to have a separate meter connected to the panels, both my FIT array and my newer GivEnergy arrays have their own meters.

geoffreycoan Agile import can be worthwhile if you need to import quite a bit throughout the day, and your import exceeds your battery capacity. It’s why I chose it for my heat pump. If your battery will last you the day then agreed other tariffs are cheaper.

With Agile, do you have to manually adjust your battery charging times? I'd like to avoid any meddling. I'd prefer to set all my schedules and just leave it.

geoffreycoan Your export tariff is based on what you export to the grid, not what you generate. On the old Feed in Tariff (FIT) solar panel scheme you got paid for (a) what you generate and (b) a ‘deemed export’ on paid at 50% of your generation that you were assumed to have exported.

If all you have on your roof is the FIT array then you can continue to receive the FIT generation and deemed export payments. If you have additional solar or a smart meter fitted then you have to give up the deemed export part of FIT (you’ll still get the measured generation payments) and instead get paid for the actual export.

After the FIT scheme closed the replacement solar payment scheme was called SEG (Smart Export Guarantee), which was paid on what you exported not what you generated. Some people call today’s export payments SEG. If your panels were not registered under the FIT scheme (e.g. installed after about 2018?) then you can only ever get paid for what you export.
It is common for solar installations to have a separate meter connected to the panels, both my FIT array and my newer GivEnergy arrays have their own meters.

My solar array has been installed in 2010, with export meter, under leasehold contract, most likely with FIT going to the panels' owners. I moved in a few years ago, and bought them out from leasehold, they are now mine. Since then, I have not changed anything, they are still likely earning FIT for previous contract owner. I'd like to utilize their export tariff. Is there a way to do that?

I am reading that SEG is still paying for production, nor export. This FAQ here talks about old export meters:
[https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/smart-export-guarantee?gad_source=5&gclsrc=ds]

• You must have a Smart or AMR meter that can obtain half hourly readings and you consent to us taking them (...)
• IMPORTANT: You must submit the readings from your export meter, online, every 6 months or we will be unable to make any payments to you. We may also ask that you provide photo evidence to support your submissions (...)
• Your SEG contract will be separate to your normal electricity and/or gas contracts
• You will still receive your normal bills for your electricity supply
• You will use some of what you generate and the excess will be exported to the grid

I don't understand how would they measure export out from home if all they take is readings from meter in the attic, which measures production?

EDIT: If my old system was created under FIT, and it will have to stay under FIT, maybe I should fill FIT Change of Ownership form, or FIT Switch form, available from one of the providers, and get paid for production?

bRhFDKtjRMK9 EDIT: If my old system was created under FIT, and it will have to stay under FIT, maybe I should fill FIT Change of Ownership form, or FIT Switch form, available from one of the providers, and get paid for production?

Yes, definitely fill it in the change of the ownership and stay on the FIT, my son bought a house last year which had solar panels installed in 2011,
At the time I knew nothing about solar panels and neither did he and there was no mention from the solicitors about them.
After I decided to have solar fitted last November I suggested he move to octopus because they had a good 15p kWh SEG so he switched to octopus and we both got £50, he then applied for SEG but was rejected because the panels were already on the FIT register, however the previous owners had never filled in the final paperwork, apparently they were just happy to get some free electricity, it was quite a long winded process of checking with solicitors and various other agencies but it was well worth it because he now receives 71p per kWh generated plus 50% deemed.
You will have to send them a photo of the generation meter every 3 months.

bRhFDKtjRMK9 If you only have the original 2010 solar array then the array will almost certainly have been installed under the FIT scheme at the time. The FIT scheme was limited to 4kW arrays and pays on generated solar based on the meter in the loft connected to the AC inverter and yes absolutely you should get the change of ownership forms done and start receiving those payments as at the time they were very generous.

That’s the first part of FIT, you get paid for what you generate for 20 years after installation.

Separately within FIT there is a payment for how much you are believed to have exported to the grid. This was assessed as 50% of what you generated and was known as deemed export. The deemed export payment was at a lower rate (e.g. my FIT generation was 30p, deemed export 5p) and for this it’s a bit more complicated.

If you ever have a smart meter fitted OR you want to move to one of the other export payment schemes such as Octopus fixed 15p export (as @Robgy explained above) then you have to give up the deemed export payment and in return receive the payment from the actual amount you export. You still receive the FIT generation payment but not the FIT deemed export.

The smart export guarantee is NOT paid on generation, it’s paid on export, the title includes ‘export’! They pay you based on what your home smart meter measures going back to the grid. The FIT generation payment continues based on the meter readings from the loft solar meter.

Whether it’s worth giving up on the FIT deemed export payments and receiving SEG measured export depends on how much of the solar you self consume and what your deemed export rate is. For me I gave up on the FIT deemed export as I had had a lot more panels installed alongside the 4kW FIT array, my deemed export payments were about £100 a year and my actual export payments have been around £1000 a year. I continue to receive the £500 FIT generation payment.

But beware of the gotcha above, if you ever have a smart meter fitted then you are obliged to give up the FIT deemed export payments and move to measured SEG export.

Thank you both, that's explain a lot, much appreciated. @Robgy well done for your son, 71p a kWh under old FIT scheme. I will see what I can do on my end.
@geoffreycoan I have new smart meter installed, so I guess I will get the FIT production transferred to me first. Then, I will select any SEG export tariff for any excess I don't consume, I guess that may not happen until summer, if ever 🙂

bRhFDKtjRMK9
Yes he is very pleased, already had £947.45 from fit.
The thing I wonder is what happened to all the payments for the last 12 years?
Payments only started from his first photo of the meter.

Robgy already had £947.45 from fit.

Don't spend it yet.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2018/10/third_party_ownership_under_the_fit_scheme.pdf

Rubikcube
Indeed, the rent a roof scheme was a concern when octopus first rejected the SEG, fortunately in his case it was either ignorance or laziness on behalf of the previous owners for not applying.
It took just over three months to prove ownership and for the FIT register people to check then confirm details.
I was surprised the solicitor didn't pick up on it during conveyancing.

Robgy I was surprised the solicitor didn't pick up on it during conveyancing.

I'm not. (Domestic) conveyancing solicitors are pretty useless - they're the bottom of the barrel really, not competent to actually practice law but can usually fill in forms.

I have sent FIT Change of Ownership form to Good Energy, who still manages FIT for previous owner, I found out. Things are moving forward. I hope I will be able to get FIT payments soon.

bRhFDKtjRMK9 Good Energy

As an aside...

Who by the looks of things are being taken over by the UAE wealth fund (Abu Dhabi) so more greenwashing on the way from Arab petrostates.

Vestas As an aside...

Who by the looks of things are being taken over by the UAE wealth fund (Abu Dhabi) so more greenwashing on the way from Arab petrostates.

Interesting. They are going to buy them out? Out from LSE? According to Wiki, they are still publicly listed company

bRhFDKtjRMK9 There's an unsolicited offer in now. GoodEnergy are "evaluating it" but it'll happen as the cost will be utterly trivial to the UAE wealth fund so they can afford to up the ante to the point at which the board will have to recommend acceptance.

GoodEnergy shares are up 25% on the week.

Nov 25 is deadline day.

Vestas Wow, that's a solid share price increase. And another British business into foreign hands, if deal goes through.
I will be happy to move my FIT payments elsewhere, but first I need to get it 😅 And find out what I will be actually getting, learn if it's fixed across all providers, maybe some pay more or less than original provider.

bRhFDKtjRMK9 I will be happy to move my FIT payments elsewhere, but first I need to get it 😅 And find out what I will be actually getting, learn if it's fixed across all providers, maybe some pay more or less than original provider.

FIT payment rates are set by the government depending on when your panels were installed. There were different scheme dates with the later schemes being less profitable. Payments go up each year in line with inflation on 1st (6th?) April.
No advantage to swapping FIT supplier at all.
As long as they pay you on time and are easy to deal with, stick with GoodEnergy. I’m with Eon for my FIT and when I moved my supply from Eon to Octopus I had the option to move FIT supplier but it would have just delayed my export payments so I didn’t bother.

geoffreycoan Thanks for letting me know. I will see the procedure to the end and report back if I have any surprises along the way.

bRhFDKtjRMK9 Update to my earlier post. I've settled on a new tariff and made a switch. Since yesterday, I am on Tomato Lifestyle Fixed TP October 2024-V1-Tariff-Battery. This is by small energy broker Tomato Energy.

Final table:

Link to the image for easy zooming

Tomato Energy does not buy energy from prosumers, so no exporting with them. It's good for people with just the battery, or with small solar panel installation, like me, who consume all generation and get FIT payments for it. 4.7p per kWh for 6 hours at night, that's a clear winner for me. On my first day on the tariff, I managed to switch my energy use with ease. Battery charge scheduled, as well as other home appliances. myenergi zappi charger put on schedule, to also charge at night only. That's what Tomato Energy sees on their end:

Usage breakdown:

And cost breakdown:

£1.92 for entire day! On my previous prepayment tariff with British Gas, 24h at 23p, that would have been £7.09!
Very happy with my choice so far.

I’ve seen a couple of YouTube videos on Tomato Energy, looks to be a good tariff. Low standing charge, import day rate very similar to standard variable tariff and a great overnight rate. Lack of export only issue for solar owners but this is apparently coming next year and at the moment for your FIT its not an issue.

Let us know how you get on with it

Will be happy to report in some time. Yes export is not an issue for me, so, it's great tariff with cheapest possible import. The company is quite small and new, if they don't flop then this could be a win.

Octopus responding..? It was pointed out to me that Octopus have updated their table of exports, and Outgoing Lite seems to have vanished: Go customers can now access the full 15p export.

https://octopus.energy/help-and-faqs/articles/which-export-tariff-can-i-combine-with-my-import-tariff/

Octopus FAQ table is updated too

https://octopus.energy/blog/outgoing-faqs/#tariffcombinations

DD Outgoing Lite seems to have vanished: Go customers can now access the full 15p export.

About time, the Lite tariff was pretty poor in comparison to Fixed outgoing, EoN drive and Scottish Power.

Wonder if the existing IOG customers will automatically get upgraded or have to apply for the new tariff?

geoffreycoan What should IOG customers be upgraded to? Am I missing something?

dragos.balaban
He meant Octopus Go (who were restricted not to use the full 15p export rate, but had a dedicated 7p one). Not Intelligent Octopus Go.

I wonder if they’ll just drop/merge the two tarrifs.

PianSom I hope so, Go seems like a raw deal next to IOG and Eon Next Drive.

I switched to IOG over the weekend now they support Hypervolt, however it is frustrating that GE and Octopus haven't sorted our support for the EV Charger yet.

My folks have the Giv AIO+EV charger for ease, however the lack of IOG support means they're relying on the Mini to work with IOG (integration is rough at best) so I am considering pushing them to move to Eon as Next Drive just feels like a win.

Interesting article in the FT from a couple of hours ago. I guess it has ramifications for you Agile folk as well as us gas guzzlers.

Headline -

UK pays more than EU for gas as winter looms
High transmission costs and global shortage of LNG push gap over European prices to widest since late 2021

Opening paras -

The UK is paying a much higher price for natural gas than continental Europe, as it tries to outbid its neighbours for limited supplies heading into the winter.

The UK’s gas price for delivery the next day rose to more than €1.6 per megawatt hour above the European benchmark in recent days, according to data assessed by Argus Media, while prices for delivery next month reached €1.5/MWh higher than Europe. Both levels mark the widest points relative to Europe since late 2021 — when Russia began reducing the amount of pipeline gas it sent — although the gaps have since narrowed slightly.

The price difference has been exacerbated by structural problems in the UK’s gas system such as high transmission costs and a lack of storage. This, coupled with a shortage of available liquefied natural gas globally, means the UK is having to offer a much higher price to try to secure the supplies it needs.

Analysts warn that the premium over European prices could rise even higher if this winter is colder than usual.
<end quote>

Here is the Gas Tracker price over the last few months (also shows the OFGEN price cap, currently at 6.24p/kWh) from Octopriceuk.app. Tracker hit 5.49p at end Oct.

Having read this article, I moved my gas from Tracker to 12m Fixed (5.67p/kWh). I can move back to Tracker pretty much instantly should cold weather not actually appear this year at all, so I thought I'd pay up for some risk reduction for a month or two.

PianSom Its been an ongoing problem since Centrica closed the Rough facility last decade (still not fully reopened).

In terms of cost - yes the gap between us/others in terms of price is increasing. It always did when prices were high.

Is the price higher than last year? No.

Are the European gas storage facilities in various countries almost full? Yes.

I think this is just froth TBH. Some hack had nothing to write about so wrote the bleedingly obvious and dressed it up as something new 🙂

Vestas
I guess my bigger point was that the premium over current spot (or, more accurately, current Tracker) for fixing for at least a month or two is not that big.

For those interested in charts, lots of historics here

As ever, YMMV

PianSom I don't think most of Europe is going to get anything other than wet this winter but we digress 🙂

If anything it'll be dependent on what new lunacy takes place in the Middle East and frankly best of luck working out which bunch of religious fanatics win that 🙁