New Heat Pump planning Rules

Some changes to HP planning rules have just been announced to improve the take up of HP's.

https://www.coolingpost.com/uk-news/new-planning-rules-boost-heat-pump-access/

Long overdue IMO & addresses some of the reasons (not all) why I've not replaced my gas boiler yet. Interestingly systems with cooling are now permitted so Air to Air (& I guess A2W with cooling function) HP's are now permitted as well as up to 2 outdoor units on detached houses. Might still not be enough to push me over the edge but at least it's a step in the right direction. It has taken some long & serious lobbying by the HP Association & other interested bodies to open the eyes of non-technical government officials to make these changes (ain't that always the case). The problem is, see below, it may be too little too late.

On the flip side of the above there are also rumours that the BUS grant may be scrapped or reduced due to lack of government funds! If this is true & implemented it will make all the new planning changes irrelevant, will make HP installation a lot more expensive & dramatically reduce market size & demand for HP's. That said without the BUS grant a higher degree of competition / market forces would be applied to HP installations so costs should come down albeit not as much as the BUS grant was providing.

[unknown] will make HP installation a lot more expensive

If they remove the BUS £7500, then I expect that the cost will drop by the same amount.

[unknown] On the flip side of the above there are also rumours that the BUS grant may be scrapped or reduced due to lack of government funds!

Where are you hearing this?

Rachel has no money

Yes Steve, I’m not completely naive. But neither am I completely credulous. So if there’s a rumour let’s have a source.

About time. We had to jump through hoops two years ago to get 2 x A2A units through planning. That plus three unjustified neighbour complaints, noise survey etc almost put us off but we persisted and well worth it too. Planning delayed the project by nearly 3 months during which time the equipment prices went up over 10%. Plus the planning department we had to deal with hadn't really got a clue - more than slightly frustrating when you have to pay them for the privilege. At least some of those hurdles will now be a lot easier to navigate.

Avenir There are various rumours within the HVAC trade about this which are linked to the current government's cost cutting activities. Most government incentives don't last forever (e.g. £0 EV road fund license - now scrapped) so it's only a matter of time before the BUS grant is canned or reduced once it's done it's job to increase the uptake of HP's. The question is when?
Although I'm retired I still have a few contacts in the Heat Pump Association & a director at the FGAS Scheme all of who have direct contact with government departments & lobbied hard over the years for the use of HP's in homes & incentives for their uptake. The recent relaxing of HP planning regulations for HP's are a direct result of pressure on government by HVAC trade associations. I have asked my contacts & others openly on LinkedIn to clarify / confirm or deny the rumours regarding the BUS grant.
Personally I doubt they will get a straight answer from anyone in government until government is ready to make an announcement. Government saying nothing perpetuates the rumours, & giving a defined date for BUS grant closure / reduction will cause a mad rush to install more HP's before the scheme closes which the government couldn't fund.

My personal guess is that government will make a reduction to the BUS scheme first followed by closure at some point later on. As to when this will happen is anyone's guess but, given the current state of the economy, government are looking to cut funding wherever they can.
If I hear any more info I'll post here or start a new thread.

CGoode Frankly there's little to no justification for heatpump grants anywhere that there's mains gas.

Prioritise the places which have no choice other than to use electric heating (oil/propane being problematic at best these days) for heatpumps.

Yes we're all going to have to stop burning gas for domestic heating but that'll take until 2050 (at least) before we can do that in most of the country given current govt "plans" - ie heatpumps for all as then they don't have to think about or do anything other than throw some cash at the problem. For example where's the sense in every terraced house having an individual heatpump? Better to heat the row of houses with hot water through existing/renovated gas pipework and a heat exchanger in each house. Then at least you're not replacing the heatpumps every 15 years...

Heatpump grants are mainly, like FiT, a transfer of tax revenues from poor to rich (relatively speaking). They make zero economic (on a country-wide scale) or social sense and are long overdue some sort of change.

Regarding cancelling the BUS grant, dropping the £2500 boost back to £5000 would be logical or adding VAT at 20% or less.

They are still looking to incentivise pumps and there are several triggers besides the grant.

But what will the government do for the older houses that are not thermally efficient enough to install a HP when their existing boiler packs up, let alone have the space for the heat storage units i.e. bungalows?

What’s a heat storage unit?

While some heat pumps can directly provide hot water/heating on demand, most are designed to heat a cylinder of water, which is then stored and used as needed.

Ortwin have the space for the heat storage units i.e. bungalows?

heat geeks had a good video a few months ago about a hot water cylinder the size of a standard kitchen cupboard that would hold sufficient hot water to wash the dishes, start a shower, etc, but then was super efficient at being able to be heated up so could be used to run a bath, shower for a long time, etc.

In essence it plumbed the cylinder the opposite way round, so the heat pump heated the jacket of water not the coil, and the coil was used as the outlet for hot water.

on the BUS grant it doesn't surprise me, it was bound to happen. The whole purpose of the grant was to kickstart the industry, RHI was more generous, BUS less so, and over time it will be phased out.
You used to get an EV car subsidy, similarly EV chargers, and FIT for solar. Each designed to start the industry off and then step back as mass market takes over

I do feel there is an element of over pricing as a result of the BUS grant so there will be a price reduction when the grant ceases.

CGoode The question is when?

March 2028 was when the BUS was scheduled to end. However I see there is some news in the mainstream press now about a potential policy change.

geoffreycoan

We had prices from two local companies of circa 7-8k after the grant with no new radiators in an A rated property.
We went gas, albeit the water tank is a hig gain/HP one, because it cost less and is cheaper to run.

I would say that some in the industry are absolutely price shifting.

If the rules change and you can have a split system that can do heat and cool circuits, then when the price was right I might consider a boiler swap. Until the prices are right though it makes no sense.

We had prices ranging from a few hundred (Octopus guesstimate) to over 15k after the grant! Oh and one refusal from Eon or Edf can’t remember which. Moral get lots of quotes. Went with one just under 9k but included lots of radiators, moving the tank to the loft, and quite a few other extras. It is a Viessmann and we are very happy with it. Costs considerably less than the oil boiler, makes zero noise in the house (B rated bungalow) and almost nothing right next to it. We now have mains pressure hot water rather than a trickle. Apart from initial cost there is no downside. Indoors there is almost (one rad a bit longer) no visible change.
I do find a lot of posts on here are very negative. The BUS grant seems one of these. I couldn’t find any real info about it stopping until 28. Who knows what may change in the future, maybe it will go up! Of course all houses aren’t suitable same as despite living within 20 miles of Bacton gas terminal there is and will never be any gas here. The idea of having large systems running whole streets might work although my grandma had something like this in the 70’s from a communal oil boiler which had maintenance problems.

SimonClarke One of these perhaps?
https://sunamp.com/en-gb/hot-water-solutions-thermino-range/
Compact instantaneous hot water thermal store which can be charged by direct electric, gas boiler or a Heat Pump.
It was something I was considering for HW if I went Air To Air HP for the house. Could charge the thermal store overnight on cheap rate or, excess solar during the day. Not as efficient as a HP but a lot more compact than an equivalent sized HW tank.

[unknown] good for flats I guess but if you have a loft I would have thought a more conventional tank was a cheaper option. We just took the tank out of a cupboard and put the new one where the header tanks had been so didn't need strengthening - and gained a cupboard! Nice to have options though

CGoode good for flats I guess but if you have a loft I would have thought a more conventional tank was a cheaper option. We just took the tank out of a cupboard and put the new one where the header tanks had been so didn't need strengthening - and gained a cupboard! Nice to have options though.

Stupid double posts

SimonClarke

In our case the negativity is around the rediculous costs after grant and some of the planning that could have been needed.

The extra for a HP compatible cylinder is exactly so that isn’t wasted when it becomes sensing to move away from gas. Sadly though 30p per kWh vs 6p doesn’t make sense.

If they did change to all split air to water that can also do cooling I’d be up for it though.

kram Sadly though 30p per kWh vs 6p doesn’t make sense

Is this referring to electricity v gas? With PV and battery and using the Octopus Cosy tariff our price per kWh when we have little or no heating (only HW) is under 15p kWh. In winter, with a standard unit cost of about 25p/kWh, we had less than 20p/kWh. In addition to the overall lower electric unit cost we did not have daily standing charge for gas.

Regarding suitability for ASHP on bungalows or terraced houses many more properties are suitable or it would be grossly inconvenient.
We are in a group of 4 similar homes built in the last 10 years. Ours is the only one with south facing roof. It is the only one with a discrete position for the pump and the hot water tank in the garage.
My brother in law is also in a new home. He does have a south facing roof and an attached garage. Siting the heat pump off his garage would be feasible apart from it being a long way from his water systems. Putting the pump near the current boiler would put a large part of his drive out of use with pump and it clear space requirement.
We have new estates being built near us, I bet they are not getting heat pumps, panels, and batteries - I must check. I have seen some with panels, typically 4 when they have roof space for many more.

Roy124 Major builders tend to only fit arrays under 3kW. The reasons are varied but mainly its because they need to use approved (eg BBA approved) panels/fitting kits/inverters and they tend to max out at 3kW.

Note that I'm not aware of any major builder intending to install any form of home battery - reasons should be self-evident, but if not then they are a support nightmare and NONE of them are approved by any of the standards schemes major builders utilise for procurement. Frankly I think installing batteries in new builds by default is a thoroughly stupid idea given the carbon cost of them and the likelihood of them being used properly. We've seen plenty of posts here with people who have let their batteries go so flat they require a technician to restart them and that's with people who paid to have systems installed - imagine what happens with your average (clueless) home buyer and multiply by a few hundred thousand 😃

Vestas interesting. I have generated 7,000kW in 2 years. At 15p/kWh roughly £500pa. If none was used for home consumption it might take 3-6 years to pay back on the panels. It would take say 2/3 of that if all the generation was used in the home. Yes, I can see that 'short term' payback would be quite low.

BUS grant seems to have survived the Spending Review.

There was something in FT the other day about an idea to narrow the spark gap by removing the green levies on electricity for heat pump users. Huge can of worms of course…
https://www.ft.com/content/b0a9eb3e-38f8-4fc4-8a60-72a12142244f

Having got both A2A and A2W installed in separate buildings, A2A is definitely the way to go. Frankly the hydraulic systems we have in the UK are archaic compared to modern A2A. The A2A we have is far more efficient, far more comfortable, 1/4 of the price to install at most, and incredibly reliable. If I was doing it again I’d be installing A2A everywhere and I think it’s the way the government should go too. They’d be no need for grants as it would be the same if not less to install than gas anyway. To put it in perspective the COP of my A2W (Daikin) averages about 4, for both cooling and heating over the year my A2A (also Daikin) averages over 8.

Al E.Gator Are they both used just for home heating or is the A2W used for water as well?

Hook Both just used for home heating. Frankly, when you add it up, using the immersion for just off peak over a year is only a marginal increase in cost overall, particularly when you consider the massively decreased installation and maintenance costs of A2A. To put in in perspective, a good A2W would get a SCOP of around 2.5 for hot water, a 200L tank would require 10kW (just under)to heat from 20-60 degrees. This would cost you off peak £0.28 a day, vs £0.70 for the immersion... a saving of £0.42 a day or £153 a year more... would take you a VERY long time to get the extra £13,000 back that the A2W cost plus all associated plumbing in the house (before grant)... 84 years to be exact.

Conversely, I can’t see how my house could be retrofitted with A2A without major works to install concealed ducting. The property is terraced with all external walls fully glazed.

Avenir To be fair, there's many different forms of A2A, we have a mix of ducted (upstairs where it's accessible in the loft) and mini splits in the rooms down stairs we couldn't get to. It's only essentially microbore pipe that is used. Agreed though, it's not suitable in every situation. My point is, that the government should be open to other systems than just A2W

Al E.Gator Presumably the A2A lobbyists have a lot less cash..... 😉

Vestas Haha, no, that would never happen would it...

[unknown] sounds like that may change:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/families-to-get-more-choice-over-home-upgrades

Still buying all the A2A kit from other countries though, and the refrigerant has a GWP (Global Warming Potential) if it is released.
We should be making the equipment in the UK

SteveCook As is almost all the A2W kit. Unlikely we'll ever make them here solely because manufacturing is so unattractive.

Al E.Gator Please stop dissing UK manufacturing unless you do the research! Vaillant manufacture ASHPs in Derbyshire (UK) and they're expanding. If you spread the myth that there are no UK heatpumps you discourage their adoption and manufacture.

[https://professional.vaillant.co.uk/about-vaillant/news/vaillant-unveils-new-uk-heat-pump-manufacturing-capacity-2529495.html]

thevilla “almost” all the A2W pumps but all the commercial HVAC, and many domestic installs of Daikin are not made in the UK. If you could read, you would have seen that I didn’t say that no heat pumps are made here. But my point still stands that they will be comparatively uncompetitive with those made in countries where manufacturing is more highly incentivised. Not to mention, many of the components in for example the vaillant arotherm plus are produced abroad (heat exchanger as an example) and then assembled in the UK.

Ideal A2W HP's are made in Hull since 2023.

A2A, what a shame. Our first home in Scotland, 1972 build had ducted warm air from storage. Our next home in England, 1974 build had ducted warm air from gas burners.

How they ever got it installed I don't know, metal cabinet in the garage, open burners. When lighting (it went out frequently) it would shoot flame 6 feet across the garage. We had to use a match on the end of a 6 foot cane.

I built a boiler room in the garage that solved that, and BG, over many years increased the 9inch flue from 8 feet to 20, and replaced the entire lot after 26 years as they had botched a repair 19 years previous when a contractor replaced the boiler.

Now if we knew of A2A.

[unknown]

There is a company in the southwest that do make ground and water to water heatpumps.

[unknown] Yes Kensa (also have a 13kW Evo for another building). It's fantastic but the installation cost is prohibitive. You're easily looking at £18k plus for a 3 bed semi.

kram Yes Kensa (also have a 13kW Evo for another building). It's fantastic but the installation cost is prohibitive. You're easily looking at £18k plus for a 3 bed semi.