IOG

I noticed a few people had mentioned having difficulty keeping track of the schedules IOG makes recently. For me it seems to create a schedule straight away but then changes it several times, sometimes showing slots of only a few minutes, before settling down. The car charges fine but it makes it hard to take advantage of these slots with other appliances. I don’t use anything other than GE control and to be honest don’t need them. It’s not a disaster but I just wondered how wide spread it was and if Octopus had changed something.
For info we have a gen1 5kw inverter, 6.24 panels east/west, 9.5 battery, EV, and heat pump.

SimonClarke
They now seem to reassess the charging schedule every half hour on IOG, particularly if it's outside the normal cheap charging period. I don't know if they do it to 'hoodwink' all those who try to game the system, or whether it's a genuine dynamic pricing to fall in line with the grid.
In any event, unless you're watching your in home display every half hour to see what's occurring, or you have sophisticated software keeping track, I just don't bother now with the out of set times.

TimHutchings usually just check the octopus app. When I plugged in a couple of days ago it immediately said about 6 different times on the schedule but that had changed a bit later (must admit I haven’t paid attention to how long it stayed put), followed by no extra time, then all night 17.30 to 0530. This meant that the car was full before 9pm at which time it stopped displaying anything apart from “Smart Control is ready”. I think that meant I was then paying full wack.
I’m hoping it’s something they can fix as it was better before but I won’t hold my breath

SimonClarke then all night 17.30 to 0530. This meant that the car was full before 9pm

I have heard that they want to try people gaming the system by asking for far more than they need. Though I'm not quite sure how exactly they would do that.

TimHutchings In any event, unless you're watching your in home display every half hour to see what's occurring, or you have sophisticated software keeping track

I went for the latter. I have noticed that the schedule changes frequently. Just the other day, I was due to charge at 8pm, but by then it had moved to 9, then 10, then 11. I now wait until the car has actually started charging before doing anything, rather than basing it on the planned schedules.
(In the summer, I inhibit export during a scheduled charging slot, since that's less of an issue if it changes it's mind at short notice.)

DD
I think people try to game the system, not so much by asking for more than they need for the car, as once the car is full the charging stops, but for topping up their home batteries during the periods outside the standard cheap slot. Some of the multiple battery systems people have, and even AIOs at 13.5kW take massive amounts of energy at 7p, or maybe heat hot water tanks, then use it at the cheap rate or export it back to the grid at 15p, so if they can gain extra slots, then there are 'chunky' sums to be had on the export tariff. I guess if Octopus just set and left the charging slots like they used to after plug in, people could easily set their system to take advantage. But by changing the schedule's half hourly slots on the half hour, not only does that bu**er the gamers up, but some of them will finish paying peak tariff by mistake, so Octopus makes some back.

TimHutchings I think people try to game the system, not so much by asking for more than they need for the car, as once the car is full the charging stops

Yes... But if you ask for 100% charge of a 50kWh battery, it needs to schedule over 7 hours of charging time, and so may well start charging in the evening. If you only actually needed 20%, you may have bagged yourself some bonus evening slots. But if you'd asked for 20%, it might have scheduled it entirely overnight.

DD
Guess Octopus could do that by checking back over previous charging sessions, to see how many times higher amounts than supply have been called for. Simple spreadsheet calculation really, as they collect all the data. It could flag up persistent offenders and bump their tariff to GO rather IOG, where they couldn't do it anymore.

TimHutchings I think people try to game the system, not so much by asking for more than they need for the car, as once the car is full the charging stops, but for topping up their home batteries during the periods outside the standard cheap slot.

My understanding is that the most egregious form that the gaming takes is to restrict the charge being taken by the car at the car (so specifying a low charge current in the car settings). IOG then sees the charge taking place, but notes that it is taking a long time so assigns copious extra slots and learns that this is required.

There was an online Octopus webinar earlier today (at which a scheduled 12 hour! charging slot screenshot was shown) and eliminating IOG gaming like this appears to be high on the current to-do list.

Presumably if Octopus tells me I can have 7p juice all night at 5pm it is because they have excess to get rid of so changing that 30 minutes later to just the normal overnight times seems a bit odd. Also telling me I will get 7p slots all evening then stopping it as soon as the car is full is also strange as they were told in the first place that I want 80% by 0530 as usual. No gaming just normal charging.

SimonClarke Also telling me I will get 7p slots all evening then stopping it as soon as the car is full is also strange

AFAIK, what they are offering is 7p from 11:30 to 05:30 plus any other time the car is charging. So if the car is not charging, you don't get cheap power. And at no point did they tell you you'll get 7p all evening: the app definitely tells me that the schedule is subject to change, but they will deliver the charge requested by the time specified.

PianSom My understanding is that the most egregious form that the gaming takes is to restrict the charge being taken by the car at the car (so specifying a low charge current in the car settings).

I've seen people posting about charging Tesla on IOG with granny charger.

From T&C:

2.4.1.8 Intelligent Octopus Go is subject to a fair use policy with a maximum of six hours of managed charging per 24 hours. Should your charging schedule request more than six hours per 24 hours, we reserve the right to charge any incremental usage above six hours at the day rate.

(But I've never heard anyone say that had actually happened.)

SimonClarke

I’m seeing exactly the same.

DD Just the other day, I was due to charge at 8pm, but by then it had moved to 9, then 10, then 11.

This is exactly what I’m getting lately. Multiple dangled carrots, then it’s removed last minute then another one added or most likely not, then next one removed etc and so on. Really difficult to plan unless you monitor it 100% of the time - which is a pain in the arse.

It’s really frustrating. I discharge my batteries in the early evening to ‘help the grid’ / get the battery export done at a suitable, helpful time. If I see 2 extra slots, I may start discharging two hours early. In the expectation that I’ll get an hour to fill them back up in these excess energy cheap slots, so it isn’t all dumped from battery to car. This isn’t on days when I need to charge a lot either, it’s on days where it would easily all fit in the cheap overnight 6 hours. Say only 1-3 hours max car charging needed.

What happens with these last minute changes is;

1) My battery export instead of ‘helping the grid’ just goes into the car. Unless I notice.
2) The cheap electricity that octopus have available to sell to me at 7p, (presumably at a profit) therefore doesn’t get used (sold to me) or only a very teeny tiny dribble.
3) My batteries will get depleted a couple of hours earlier than expected - in the peak import time, if I don’t notice.

To be honest I preferred it when the car charging is scheduled within the 6 hours, as it’s easier to control; car charges, batteries charge at the same time. Although it would be nice if it was 7 hours, now the GE battery charge schedule drops of when near full. OR ideally like it was before; give us the schedule and DONT change it. When new people plug in during the evening, give them a different schedule to match what you now need.

What I am forced to do now is go out at 23:30 to plug the car in. - or maybe 23:00 just in case they give 1 extra slot, which is easier to then spot !
OR to do what others seem to be doing and turning off the smart charge toggle.
But I haven’t done the latter yet, as I think it’s good generally if the intelligent bit does its thing intelligently. After all that’s what I signed up for.

For me it’s not running out of battery that’s important. Keep moving the slots only results in my batteries filling the car, which seems stupid and against what the Octopus scheduler is trying to achieve, which is presumably selling excess power to us at 7p which costs them less than 7p. Otherwise why would it schedule us extra isolated early evening charging slots that cost them more money per unit than they are paying? They wouldn’t.

Surely these extra isolated evening slots must only be awarded if they can make a profit on it.

As for gaming the system by using a granny charger, I personally think that, yes, that is taking the piss. It should be a tariff requirement to have a proper 7kW charger or else to only get the 6 hours of cheap slots, which seems fair and would avoid excessive gaming the system. Reducing the charge rate on the vehicle; I thought they were wise to that as well and only gave equivalent slots of the expected time required at the normal charge rate. Maybe not?

Also, probably, importing for 7p and exporting for 15p and re-importing during the cheap window is as well. Clearly that’s not the idea.

Currently, these changes are going to force more and more people turn off the smart charge toggle and only use it once a month to stay within the rules.

Eventually the "smart charge" will become the only option other than a "granny charger" for EVs.

Nobody is going to pay for the necessary local upgrades to electricity network infrastructure so EV charging will become pretty much automated - pick the time you need the car and that's the limit of your control bar a few "emergency" charges. Otherwise pay a (much) higher rate to have control over the EV charger.

This is also why I said in another thread that putting 20% VAT on EV charging at home would be fairly simple.

Vestas This is also why I said in another thread that putting 20% VAT on EV charging at home would be fairly simple.

2 days to see what Rachael does

DD my point is that it has changed. It used to rearrange the schedule a couple of times then stay put. It’s not a disaster just irritating.

SteveCook 2 days to see what Rachael does

The 3p/mile thing is an interim measure from a largely clueless (again, regardless of party) bunch of tossers who just do what their donors say is best.

I think people driving EVs and EV manufacturers ought to advocate for a flat 20% VAT measure on EV charging (including domestic) ASAP. They might find the alternatives are less pallatable in the very near future.

Pete UK Really difficult to plan unless you monitor it 100% of the time - which is a pain in the arse.

You're welcome to share my python automation scripts - I run them on a rpi that's always-on anyway.
Could let it control your inverter, or just opt to have it send notifications to your phone when the charging slots change.

It’s really frustrating. I discharge my batteries in the early evening to ‘help the grid’ / get the battery export done at a suitable, helpful time. If I see 2 extra slots, I may start discharging two hours early. In the expectation that I’ll get an hour to fill them back up in these excess energy cheap slots, so it isn’t all dumped from battery to car.

To be fair to Octopus, it's an EV tariff, not an EV-and-battery tariff. I don't know if they are doing things to actively discourage battery owners, but I assume the majority of their EV customers don't have batteries, and those are the ones they want to optimise for.

When new people plug in during the evening, give them a different schedule to match what you now need.

If you don't need car until 9am, but they need it by 5:30, it makes sense to move you later to free up slots.

As for gaming the system by using a granny charger, I personally think that, yes, that is taking the piss. It should be a tariff requirement to have a proper 7kW charger or else to only get the 6 hours of cheap slots

Or just enforce the fair-use clause.

Reducing the charge rate on the vehicle; I thought they were wise to that as well and only gave equivalent slots of the expected time required at the normal charge rate. Maybe not?

Not sure. My Leaf can only charge at 3.6kW. But then of course it only has a small battery. (I do feel slightly guilty that I use much more energy filling my house battery than ever goes into my car.)

DD

Thanks for the scripts offer but I don’t have a raspberry pi at the moment. Also I’m on the GE dual inverter balancing software beta still. Maybe in the future….

I don’t know if any amount of extra automation would be able help though, unless it can foresee the future Octopus planning changes for the bonus slots though. If Octopus changes the plan mid plan; you plan to discharge “X” in “A” available hours, and charge “Y” in “B” available hours: mid plan the Octopus scheduler changes the “A” and “B” and when “A” and “B” occur. You can’t achieve the “X” and “Y”. Just the “Y” maybe at the end of the normal 6 hours. And thats only the car bit of the “Y” and not the battery bit of the “Y”.

As @SimonClarke mentioned it’s frustrating but not the end of the world. I know it’s not aimed at battery users but it frustrates us.

It just seems so very odd to give (for example) 4 extra slots of say only 3 mins charging and then take them all away at the last minute, or swap them to the adjacent slot (to then charge for 30 minutes which becomes battery drain instead of intended cheap grid use) when you’re not looking !

It’s gone from “oh I’ve got a handy extra slot” to “what, where did that go?” And/ or “that’s a waste, my battery just filled my car for no reason,
Instead of the grid” (like Octopus presumably intended.) I know it’s not a battery tariff but the new changes of mini charges in extra, early slots that move all over the place or disappear isn’t helping me or them achieve our goals really.

Maybe more people are just not using the smart charging function, that’s why they change so much. They used to maybe change once and that was it.
Now it seems VERY dynamic with lots of schedule
Changes. Maybe 4 or 5 or more.

Octopus say it is being caused by my charger. Unfortunately it appears to be working correctly. They want me to turn it off and on again which I will but not until after Octopus fit my new smart meter Thursday. I will be surprised if it makes any difference but I will try.

SimonClarke
Must be my charger, and everyone else's too! If you're talking about IOG and the slots that keep changing. Hmmmmmm! 🤔

TimHutchings yes seems a bit unlikely.

SimonClarke my point is that it has changed. It used to rearrange the schedule a couple of times then stay put. It’s not a disaster just irritating.

My understanding from Octopus forums and a recent "Supergroup" meeting is that changes have recently been made to combat things like problems with Zappi chargers doing 1 minute charges and other issues. These have for me made quite a difference (not all for the better BTW) and the quantity of re-scheduling is noticeably higher for all of us on IOG whatever your kit.

Phil Steele from Octopus yesterday mentioned that more changes are coming. To combat those perhaps exploiting IOG behaviour too much (no ideas what his definition of that is) and more changes will arrive soon - the implementation is only delayed because of recent OFGEM price cap etc announcements.

I thought that as IOG has linked up and controls when the car is charged it could tell that what it is supplying is going to the car and will be at the cheap rate.
I have noticed that when exporting from my solar batteries with the car plugged in and ready to charge sometimes the schedule changes to an earlier slot, the car it will take the export from the battery and top up from the grid. So I now don't export when the car is plugged in.

Ortwin it could tell that what it is supplying is going to the car and will be at the cheap rate.

I think you are attributing too much intelligence to IOG. It doesn't (today) understand the subtleties of how you have your equipment arranged. It just cares about delivering charge to the car's battery (by triggering the car or EVSE depeding on which is integrated) over the chosen intelligent slots, to make most economic / grid load sense by your 'ready by time'. Charging any import you have for those slots at the discounted rate. Where that energy actually comes from is irrelevant as far as IOG goes (today).

That's why so may folk spend a lot of time ensuring grid CTs are located correctly to avoid battery drain during charging, or using HA to ensure the same (or even in my case trigger home battery charging) during a slot.

Ortwin
Same here! If I'm offloading the solar battery in the evening, I don't plug the car in till I've finished exporting as they seem to change the schedule around every half hour for the first few hours.

TimHutchings I think people try to game the system, not so much by asking for more than they need for the car, as once the car is full the charging stops,

In a thread on the octopus forum, people saying that they've had the amount requested reduced, eg from 80% to 40%. No obvious pattern yet.

Well it turns out Octopus can tell how much it is supplying to your EV.

Ortwin I think we knew that - they already have their 'drivepack' add-on to a standard tariff which separates out the energy that goes to the EV
https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-drive-pack/

Octopus announced some changes to IOG today as well.

Since we launched Octopus Go over 7 years ago, we’ve invested millions in unlocking the power of smart electricity, and passing on savings to customers like you who are literally driving the clean energy transition forward.
Intelligent Octopus Go has always offered super-cheap power for your whole home every night and smart charging to let you charge cleaner for less.
To keep our off-peak rates as low as possible, by the end of January we will be updating Intelligent Octopus Go to automatically apply the 6 hour limit for super-cheap smart-charging.
Around 80% of Intelligent Octopus Go charging sessions are already using less than the 6 hours mentioned in our terms – which is good, because scheduling more inevitably drives up the cost as we're charging when wholesale costs and grid stress are higher.

The fundamental benefits of Intelligent Octopus Go remain the same:
Intelligent Octopus Go customers will continue to receive 6 hours of off-peak electricity for your whole home between 11:30pm and 5:30am. Guaranteed, reliable, schedule-friendly off-peak savings.
Plus up to 6 hours of super-cheap smart charging every 24 hours – these may be during your home’s off-peak hours (11:30pm - 05:30am), outside those times, or a mix of both.
Whenever the 6 hours smart charging is scheduled outside your off-peak window, the electricity for your whole home will also be at the discounted rates.
If we need to schedule more than 6 hours to reach your target charge, only the first 6 hours of charging will be at the discounted rate – extra half-hours will be charged at your Bump rate (even if they’re scheduled during the off-peak window).
Plugging in your vehicle daily (when possible) makes Intelligent Octopus Go cheaper and reduces the amount of smart-charging hours you need overnight.
Tens of thousands of Intelligent Octopus Go customers are already plugging in daily. But all Intelligent Octopus Go customers benefit from more cars being available to the grid more of the time – so if you can, please do.

SimonClarke For a while now, the T&C have had the 6-hour "fair use" clause. Just seems that they now intend to enforce it.

DD don’t think it will affect me

DD
Others have said the opposite previously.

Looks like they are going for the granny charger brigade.

This change wouldn’t normally affect us, probably only after returning home from a long trip would we required a charge longer than 6 hours. Hopefully octopus will add the feature to the app soon to limit a charge to 6 hours max and then I would just replenish the car over multiple days.

Octopus asked for feedback and I suggested an option to limit the hours so you don't go into the high rate charge.

There's people out there gaming/exploiting IOG to the extent they get 23 hours of off-peak energy every day.

I have ZERO sympathy for anyone complaining - you still get a better deal than ANYONE else on Octopus!

There's a huge thread on the Octopus forum. One thing that has emerged is that Ohme and Hypervolt chargers have been throttling charging rates without any control from customers, and Octopus appears to have had no idea this was happening. Would be interesting if this is actually most of what Octopus have interpreted as gaming.

Which octopus forum are refering to?

Ortwin Which octopus forum are refering to?

https://forum.octopus.energy You have to be an Octopus customer and persuade them to invite you. Not sure if we members can nominate or invite ourselves these days. It took me quite a while and a few requests to be let in.

Thanks for the link, I have emailed Octopus and will wait and see.
My charge on Friday afternoon/evening has been charged at peak rate so emailed to get them to credit me.

Why when things are working do people change it so it doesn't 🤦

Ortwin hope you can get in, it's been very useful in there the last few months.

Octopus have also apparently replied to say that if you’ve reached the 6hr charging point you shouldn’t use solar diversion if you require more charge. (And yes I know it’s better to export everything- stating the case that if you we’d more charge than the 6hrs gives and solar is available and free, why not?)

This is nuts, you’re not using power they supply in that case! So how/why can they mandate this?

DD I’ve asked Hypervolt to check mine but so far they are behaving like GE - no reply

SimonClarke I have a zappi. I have a vague recollection of them offering to pay me to allow them to throttle charging to help the grid, but I think it might have said I couldnt be on any other such program, so I declined. Can't remember if it was email or a popup on the web page.

Smk82 Octopus have also apparently replied to say that if you’ve reached the 6hr charging point you shouldn’t use solar diversion if you require more charge. (And yes I know it’s better to export everything- stating the case that if you we’d more charge than the 6hrs gives and solar is available and free, why not?)

This is nuts, you’re not using power they supply in that case! So how/why can they mandate this?

My guess is that Octopus can’t distinguish between solar charging and grid charging which is why they are advising not using solar diversion. In earlier FAQ’s they said that they can determine how much EV charging you have done in a 24 hour period because they can interrogate the EV charger (or car) so if you solar charge then they might think this is extra grid EV charging and this messes up their calculations.

As I said, only a guess

geoffreycoan they are advising not using solar diversion

Clearly me being slow on a Monday morning. I've got Zappi integration and the whole config guidance / mandate is to use ECO+ which itself is designed to divert solar. The only way around that is to dive into installer mode and set very wide export margins and maybe even other settings. Feels like IOG is moving further away from a tarrif that any person in the street could walk up and use easily if more steps like these are required.

Am I missing something?

geoffreycoan Surely Octopus won't charge you for more kwh than you import at any time. I suppose they may get the calcs wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but I think we need only worry about those 'extra' charging slots at full rate if we also solar divert at the same time. I will be keeping an eye on things to make sure they are doing it right when the switch over comes, athough, tbh, it is very rare for me to bump charge (once in 12 months?). The 6 hour limit should be no issue for me and even though I only use a 7kw max charger which gives me 180+ miles each day without going over.

SimonClarke it made no difference as expected. Still waiting on Hypervolt replying

Mouton Clearly me being slow on a Monday morning. I've got Zappi integration and the whole config guidance / mandate is to use ECO+ which itself is designed to divert solar. The only way around that is to dive into installer mode and set very wide export margins

I was just responding to the comment that Octopus are advising to turn off solar divert with a possible reason as to why they might say that.

Financially if you have got an export MPAN then it makes sense to not do any solar diversion, to set a high export margin so all your solar gets exported and never charges the car. And with export rates being what they are, Solar divert isn't really a needed feature. Yes Zappi highlight it as a pro of their product but financially its better to export everything.

Of course export rates may change.

geoffreycoan Financially if you have got an export MPAN then it makes sense to not do any solar diversio

Except that if charging from grod could cost peak rate, solar divert (or battery discharge) becomes the preferred option.

Smk82 the t&c specify no more than 6 hours smart charging. But obviously they don't want you to smart charge up to 6 hours and also just turn off smart charging and do an additional 6-hour dumb-charge as off-peak domestic. But since the only thing they can measure is (all) energy sent to the car, they have a problem if you mix in some grid and some solar energy.

Mouton
Many thanks, i did email octopus and have got a reply with a link to register even though it says for Agile users .

Ortwin Excellent. I'm only on IOG, but with battery and an interest in HA and the tech it seems OK to be there these days.

I'm more mechanically minded but dabble with the modernisation of our bungalow.

Ortwin then look for the humorous discussion at the end of the Supergroup thread, regarding threads. You’ll likely feel at home.