Another beautiful day:

And fans connected to the EPS are doing their thing:

Great to see the sun

But back to excessive grid voltages that shut my inverters down

Wednesday:

I reinstated my summer clipping control automation for Thursday, this made some improvements, but I didn’t get the speed of trickle charging quite right and predbat had to charge the batteries at full rate in the afternoon 14p period:

Phoned the DNO about the ticket that’s been open for a month about the high voltages

Snap.
I can see how many cups of tea we are getting through in the day &, that my wife seems to be running the HP dryer at night when she could have pegged out the washing on the line during the sunny day. Hmmm. Do I point this out or, let it slide? Also evident that my 15 panel ESE & NW 6.6kWp array (maxed out roof space) is going to be limited by my inverter in the height of summer.

This also indicates that my 3.6kW Inverter is only just coping with the house load & needs constant manual management to prevent importing from the grid. Which is why I had a survey done yesterday for larger inverter & battery quote (subject to DNO approval). Not the best financial decision (replacing a 3 year old system) but necessary to fix some issues that have been bugging me since day one.

Currently I have to pause my Gen 2 9.5kWh batteries at night to prevent the EV (when plugged in) from draining them, another issue I hope the new inverter will solve with smart intelligence rather than having to re-wire my meter box. Yes I know it would be cheaper to re-wire & move some CT's than get a new inverter but the size & limited output of existing inverter is the main problem I have. I also want to have whole house EPS back up as we've had an increasing number of power cuts in recent years.
After I get up off the floor, from the price of the replacement system quote, I'll make a decision whether to stick or twist.

CGoode Just set the batteries to charge overnight when the EV is charging :-)

wrighar The car (when plugged in) & house batteries do both charge at the same time during the cheap rate period overnight. However, the house batteries total 19.5kWh (charging at 3.6kW) & the car is 64kWh (charging at 7.4kW) so very difficult (impossible) to get the two charging times to match up identically. So, I pause the output from the batteries from 11.30pm to 5.30am, run the house & charge the batteries & car at 7p overnight. The car cannot drain the house batteries because they are paused & have no output during this period.
The other issue is because I'm on IOG tariff, Octopus will often take over the car charging & charge it randomly on/off during the cheap rate period or, more problematic, charge the car outside of the normal cheap rate time periods. So when this happens the house batteries are still in normal / ECO mode & the car drains the house batteries which are not scheduled to charge / pause until 11.30pm. To combat this I have to keep my Zappi car charger turned off (Stop mode) every time the car is plugged in & then remember to turn it back on again at 11.30pm before I go to bed. It's a right old faff. I have forgotten to do that on more than one occasion & woke up to a non-charged car!!

It's a common problem & can be fixed with a meter cupboard / consumer unit, EV charger re-wire & CT re-position so the house inverter cannot see the charger charger. However, this doesn't alter the underlying problem that my inverter is just too small for my current & future needs hence why I'm toying with a replacement. As such there's no point me spending money fixing the current system issues if I do replace it with something else.

The quote I'm getting is for a 10kW Eleven 1ph inverter with around 27kW of Sodium Iron batteries to cover my cuurent & future needs if I decide to fit some more Air to air heat pumps. Eleven have a gateway coming out soon so it could tick all my boxes as a more environmentally friendly, chemically safer & better cold weather performing solution. The big question will the price. Eleven components are now listed on Midsummer's Wholesale website so I have a basic idea of the kit cost (not cheap) excluding the install labour. We'll see when the quote comes in. I got a quote for a similar Sigenery system a few months ago for an eyewatering £18.5k so I'm hoping it's less than that or I'll have to shelve the whole idea & wait for sodium battery prices to drop a lot lower. My only other query will be whether the Eleven system can be run via the App or a hard wired PC with a 3rd party App directly without needing the Cloud or someone else's server if Eleven go bust!!

CGoode To combat this I have to keep my Zappi car charger turned off (Stop mode) every time the car is plugged in & then remember to turn it back on again at 11.30pm before I go to bed.

That's easy to automate with the MyEnergi API. You've mentioned that you don't want to go that route, but you've also mentioned a capable family member - no reason that it has to be your own computer that sends the necessary signal.

Just got my quote for the Eleven 10kW Iph Inverter & 6 x 4.5kW Sodium batteries. The Eleven gateway is not yet available but could be added later. £10,350 installed which I didn't think was too bad given I was previously quoted £18.3k for a Sig system - admittedly that included a gateway.
More thinking needed & what to do with the gash GE kit if I go ahead.

CGoode Have you asked about the Eleven kit specs in terms of things like reaction to load time and round trip efficiency etc? I looked for that and can't get any clear answers so I'm not entirely sure about how that technology is performing Vs lithium. Other than that I liked the look of it - also indoor installation with less concerns. But I'd be a bit cautious until you have some clarity on key performance parameters.

That Sig quotation you have seems very high. I was quoted 27kwh of storage with the large inverter and gateway for around £12.5k installed.

sponev Have you asked about the Eleven kit specs in terms of things like reaction to load time and round trip efficiency etc? I looked for that and can't get any clear answers so I'm not entirely sure about how that technology is performing Vs lithium. Other than that I liked the look of it - also indoor installation with less concerns. But I'd be a bit cautious until you have some clarity on key performance parameters.

That Sig quotation you have seems very high. I was quoted 27kwh of storage with the large inverter and gateway for around £12.5k installed.

Having watched a couple of video interviews with the guys behind Eleven with EFix & Gary does Solar & seen a couple install video's, the round trip efficiency is supposed to be better than conventional batteries as is the cold weather performance & charging limits. I can't remember what they said about the reaction times though. Specs & manuals for the Inverters & batteries are downloadable from the Eleven website but I found them easier to find on the Midsummer website.
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/eleven-energy/10kwh
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/eleven-energy/stackable-sodium-ion-battery-base-and-junction-box

The Sig quote I got was from Artisan Electrics who are very "high end" YT electricians - also an Eleven approved installer who have also done a video of one of their own Eleven installs. Their Sig quote was based on info & pictures I provided via their website questionnaire & not a site visit so they probably have an extra buffer % included. Their quote was subject to a site visit but even so, their price was IMO very high for what is just an Inverter & Battery change. However, it did include a Gateway.

I still have to do a bit more research before I decide what to do. Don't want to "jump out the frying pan into a fire" so to speak. That said I do get a good vibe from the Eleven products & guys behind the company.

CGoode Do you use Home Assistant? If not is it something you would be prepared to try? I don't think it would be all that complicated to pause the batteries based on an IOG session sensor or when charging is detected? It would be a lot cheaper than an entirely new system.
Home Assistant plug in batteries could eventually supplement your existing capacity as those become legal. Ideally these would also be a brand you could control directly or indirectly with Home Assistant.

CGoode If you go for the Eleven kit, I'll be very keen to see how you get on please. I got as far as measuring up in one of our garages and I can fit three enclosures with six batteries fairly easily. It isn't pretty but that's not really the point. It's certainly on my list if we eventually jump, but for now my recent venture into Home Assistant and local control of GIv (easier than I'd imagined) means I'll be holding off for a while. This will give the likes of Eleven and even Sig, more time to mature.

With respect to Artisan, there's absolutely no need to pay that. They're clearly targeting "high end" but they're no better than a couple of my local installers who are 50% cheaper. It's a pi$$ take to be fair. Jordan is an interesting chap but I'm not sure he's actually a decent businessman. I'm also not convinced that he's a top grade electrician having watched some of his videos!

CGoode have you thought about getting a second 3.6 inverter and possibly another battery? This would double your output to the house if required. Cheaper than scrapping everything and replacing it.

pwdst Do you use Home Assistant? If not is it something you would be prepared to try? I don't think it would be all that complicated to pause the batteries based on an IOG session sensor or when charging is detected? It would be a lot cheaper than an entirely new system.
Home Assistant plug in batteries could eventually supplement your existing capacity as those become legal. Ideally these would also be a brand you could control directly or indirectly with Home Assistant.

Nope. From what I've seen HA is above my pay grade & I'm not that much of a geek to want a complicated (to me) system tying loads of stuff together with lines of code. As I've mentioned on here previously I'm at least 2 generations too old for a lot of modern tech. I grew up with slide rules & Log tables & I can just about manage Alexa & the GE portal. I'm possibly overstating reality here but hopefully you get where I'm coming from.

TBH if it was just a case of stopping the EV from draining my house batteries I would spend the money & get my existing system re-wired to prevent this from occurring. But it's not just the battery drain problem. The biggest underlying problem is that my Gen 2 3.6kW Hybrid GE inverter is just too small for my current & future needs.
If I could just replace my existing inverter for a bigger capacity GE model & retain my existing batteries I would. But I can't because GE's larger capacity inverters (high voltage) are not backwards compatible with my Gen 2 batteries (low voltage). So, faced with no GE option to upgrade my existing inverter my only option is to replace the inverter & batteries with something else which ticks all requirements & possibly more. It also gets me out of the GE support issues (lack of) which so many people (myself included) have had problems with. I just hope the next make will have better support than GE! I don't think it could be much worse!

So with that in mind I started looking at a "start from scratch" solution with a lot more knowledge & experience than I had when I had my existing installed 4 years ago. Assuming DNO approval I want a minimum 10kW 1ph Inverter & 25kWh+ of storage which can be expanded if required. The 11 sodium batteries are very attractive as a more environmentally friendly, safer & better cold weather performing alternative to an LFP battery so I started investigating what they had to offer.

The only downside with the 11 system for me so far is space which, in my single attached garage, is in short supply. I also don't want any equipment outside my house. The 11 Sodium batteries will be problem to locate as you can only stack them 4 high (Galvani type) so to get my desired 25kWh+ of storage I would need 6 x 4.5kW modules which means two stacks of 3 + a base unit & a top junction box on each stack which makes each stack 1,350mm high x 250mm deep x 640mm wide. I'm also looking at the possibility of laying 11's Volta rack type sodium batteries side by side on the floor. Slightly deeper front to back but much lower in height for not much extra width. Still working on that option.

I've still not decided one way or the other yet but if I can solve the space & EPS / house back up issues the chances are that I will pull the trigger on the 11 system at some point. I might wait until 11 have their gateway ready for sale but I'm not sure when that might be atm.
Sorry for the long reply but I feel I needed to explain the details & how my head works - or not as the case may be!!

NormC Yes but two big drawbacks.

1. Space. My single attached garage is rammed with no extra wall / floor space available & I don't want any kit outside either.
2. Adding another GE product keeps me tied to their woeful support.

sponev I got as far as measuring up in one of our garages and I can fit three enclosures with six batteries fairly easily. It isn't pretty but that's not really the point.

So are you looking at the Galvani stacked batteries (which are new) or, the Volta type which can go in external weatherproof boxes or server type racks which are the ones shown in most of the install video's including the one by Artisan.? The stacked Galvani battery models look quite slick. Max 4 x 4.5kW modules in each stack (18kW/ stack). I would need 2 stacks of 3 but the height could be an issue for me due to the amount of gubbins I've got on my garage wall already (consumer unit, Eddi, Inverter, trunking, DC/AC isolators, EV consumer unit & the existing Batts underneath that lot).

There is still some stock of inverters that would.(as I understand it) work with Gen 1-3 batteries. The tricky thing will be finding an installer to do the G99 and the swap. https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/giv-energy/givenergy-gen3-5
It does also leave you dealing with GivEnergy support and potentially an absense of warranty if indeed administration happens.

pwdst It does also leave you dealing with GivEnergy support and potentially an absense of warranty if indeed administration happens.

The Gen 3 5kW Inverter doesn't give me enough over my existing 3.6kW &, part of my reasoning to change makes is to get away from GE as a company, their lack of support & potential demise.
Not saying the next manufacturer I choose will definitely be a safe bet but I think there are much better alternatives out there now.

I just wanted to make sure all of your options were clear to you.

CGoode I was looking at the box type but I'd need three of those and while they would still fit in my preferred position, they are a fair bit deeper than my existing kit. I also spotted the new stackable kit in one of their pdfs, so I'll revisit that at some point.

I know Eleven have a bigger inverter available now (8kw?) but do they have a gateway available yet? Apologies if you've already mentioned that.

I'll be very keen to hear how you get on as the sodium batteries are quite compelling on face value. I just need to see a bit more maturity of the technology and the company before I step in.

Just on the Home Assistant stuff, I totally understand your point and I was also skeptical. However I got it up and running with some decent dashboards in around 3 hours over the last couple of days. No coding needed but even the YAML didn't look too daunting. The large majority is drag and drop or just plugging identifiers into pre-defined fields. So if GE does go pop before you get your new gear, then Home Assistant could still come to your rescue.

sponev Yeah I might be a bit self critical when it comes to learning modern tech - old dog new tricks syndrome so HA or even Rubikcube could be an option if absolutely necessary. I'd rather avoid the hassle tbh.

11 now offer 6, 8 & 10, & 12kW 1ph & 12kW 3ph inverters. 8kw & up have 3 string inputs. Now listed on the Midsummer Wholesale website estimated arrival dates so they must be in production now.

No gateway shown yet. However, the guy who quoted me reckons it's in development for future release. Just hope that they develop their products a bit quicker than GE!!
The existing inverters do have an EPS port connection which can be manually switched so that could satisfy a back up scenario as a temporary measure if needed. Assuming I have enough space to locate it on my garage wall I'd probably wait for the gateway & add it later. No dimensions available for the gateway yet so that's something else I need to find out as well as if the inverters have an ethernet connection that I can hardwire to my router (can't see one in the install manual).

So near but not quite ticking all my boxes yet. Very frustrating.

It's an overcast & chilly (4c) Sunday & we're doing a roast for some family. I look at my GE App / portal & see that we are exceeding our 3.6kW inverter by a factor of 2!! Generation is only 1.1kW, 2 ovens on, Gas CH on, kettle on/off regularly, usual background loads + Air to Air HP in conservatory (heating). This is why I need a larger inverter!

CGoode It feels like Eleven will be there or thereabouts fairly soon and I'll be watching with interest.
I know what you mean about the 3.6kw discharge and we do have to be careful. We run two A2A heat pumps although seldom both at once. They modulate down to about 1kw but we can still exceed the 3.6 if we're cooking and there's no solar about. So a bigger inverter will be one of the main reasons we change at some point not too far down the track. That said, we came out with a negative utilities bill again last year, so the odd spikes of peak rate grid power haven't hurt too much.

If possible confirming with your DNO that a G99 application for more than 5kW is likely to be accepted might be a good start. It may be possible to install a larger system with an export limit though.

pwdst If possible confirming with your DNO that a G99 application for more than 5kW is likely to be accepted might be a good start. It may be possible to install a larger system with an export limit though.

Yep. Our quote includes for a G99 DNO approval but I need to find out if the DNO (N.Grid) are likely to approve a larger inverter & what size or limitation there might be. Without that I'm flogging a dead horse!

CGoode Some DNOs seem to be more helpful than others here. Some seem quite happy to answer an email and state it doesn't look like it would be a problem, others will just direct you to submit the G99.

pwdst Thanks. I might try a direct approach & see what happens.

It might save a bunch of wasted design and quote work by (potentially multiple) installers if your DNO wouldn't be willing to let you have more export, or at least focus time on systems where the DNO is willing to accept configured limits.

Very surprising but it looks like Eleven inverters don't have a Ethernet / Lan port for hard wiring to my router (as is my GE inverter)?? The Wifi signal strength in my garage is quite weak which is why & hardwired my GE inverter. Can't quite believe why a modern inverter would not have a Lan / Ethernet port.
Might have to reconsider my options.

pwdst My thoughts exactly.
My installer says he can / will do the DNO G99 application after I give them the go-ahead / order for the system. This sounds backwards because there is a chance that the DNO will not approve a larger inverter on my property in which case all my installers design work & my research & fund raising would have been in vein. I've had a look on the NG website & the only way you can get any info is by making a full application.
Stupid system that can waste a lot of everyone's time. Must have been designed by a civil servant!

CGoode the DNO probably don't want to get caught out by having given a verbal "yeah should be OK" and then when they do the analysis find that you can't get an upgraded export limit, and vice versa

on the lack of ethernet on the Eleven inverter, just get a wifi repeater node and plug it into your existing ethernet cable

or get a mesh network which is the route I went down to improve the wifi connectivity in the garage and the rest of the house. Previously I had a powerline repeater in the lounge that broadcast its own network and connected the inverters to that, but periodically it would disconnect itself and I had to unplug and re-plug it in again to regain connectivity.
The mesh network was one of the best purchases I made, its made the wifi around the house so much more reliable. I bought a set of 3 Mercusys H80X mesh network nodes and then subsequently bought 3 H50G's so have 6 nodes in total and we get good wifi everywhere in the house and garden now.