Portal Email from GE

Posting part of it here, for those who may not have received it yet:

I need to speak directly about an upcoming change to the software that powers your GivEnergy system. To date, it has been provided free of charge, funded by ongoing hardware sales.

Infrastructure, data storage, and operations all have ongoing monthly costs. Our products can last over 15 years, which adds up to many hundreds of pounds over their lifetime.

As our user base has grown and hardware sales have slowed, that model no longer works.

What’s changing

To continue operating the platform sustainably, we’re moving to a model which - I hope you’ll agree - is simple, fair and transparent:

• Local access remains free, forever

You’ll always be able to manage your system over your home network. Your system can continue to function independently of cloud services, for those who want a more hands-on approach.

• Cloud access will become paid

A single monthly fee will cover remote access, historical data, automation, and API usage (including third party remote access). These are the services which mainly drive our ongoing costs.

and

What about managing it yourself?

Some customers prefer to take full control of their system locally, using their own tools and setup. That option will always remain available, and we plan to make this easier than ever before in the coming months.

There's more about some proposed changes and costs/benefits, but nothing people here won't know.
I just thought these bits were the most relevant, with regards the portal.

There's also a survey, which is probably worth doing.

I was just drafting a similar topic on my phone. Oh well. I assume GivTCP will still work without paying as its local access & I check what the system is doing through Home Assistant these days. I can't believe Giv didn't price in the cost of supporting the kit for 10yrs or so when selling the inverters/batteries. particularly given the rather uncompetitive (at least in today's prices) cost per kwh.

With the above grumpiness considered, if it keeps Givenergy around to provide a warranty service then so much the better.

Just got this and did the survey. I’ll just be sticking with home assistant, hard to see the justification for more than pence in monthly cost to access the portal/app.
I’m sure some will sign up due to fear of not being able to control their large investment, which is understandable. Were there some details hidden in the T&Cs when these systems were bought suggesting that the online system would be free for a number of years, I certainly don’t remember. Tesla had to come out later and say that basic connectivity would only be free for 8 years (for those without lifetime premium connectivity). I suppose if Givenergy did something like that it would be more understandable that changing it for everyone regardless of how long they have had their system in one go.

Like many things GE - potentially well meaning, but poorly executed.

Who is this email actually from? Uses the first person but no name at the bottom.

The recognition of existing issues within is such that my immediate reaction was “how about you learn to talk before you try to run?”

The “how this will actually save you money” came across as somewhat disingenuous - weren’t these part of the spec that customers bought in the first place?

I’m all for GE getting itself on a sustainable financial footing. But personally I’d be focused on building a better quality (software) product to lower support costs (and get more future sales), rather than looking to eke out more revenue from existing customers (and turning off future ones in the process) by slapping in a paywall / trying to build a Saas subscription business.

If you use home assistant with give TCP for instance do you need the API? I export sometimes and the place I use needs API access also I've paid for power inverter etc

GivTCP no, something like Axle/WonderWatt/IOF yes.

pwdst thanks for taking the time to answer much appreciated

Lincs_Will the hit will come if it blocks givtcp saying you have to subscribe in order to get givtcp access !!

Other threads also running

deepanshus they can't block that as long as they can't "see" your inverter. A big discussion and advice on here a few weeks back about how to do that. GivTCP is on a device on your local network which talks direct to the inverter. It's independent functionality you can add to Home Assistant.

sponev They could update the Inverter firmware to make the local APIs unavailable or require authentication, which could be in the form of GE issued tokens.
Probably possible to avoid by not updating firmware and/or rolling back to previous versions.
As you say blocking communication with their cloud services would stop any such change, but invalidate the warranty.

pwdst but then they'd be on really dodgy ground legally. If they're not actually there already! If I elected to not subscribe and run independently (likely) and then they tampered with my gear, I wouldn't take it lying down. Forcing you into a subscription to preserve your warranty also wouldn't fly legally. They really aren't on very solid ground at all which I'm sure they know.

I don't think they will do this, especially as they have explicitly said they will keep local access free, but technically they could.

pwdst
The brochure says Free forever. I guess they could do anything

Again, I mean technically. Legally, morally, ethically are another matter which I am not contemplating.

Its an april fool that was sent a few hours early by mistake...... Isnt it?

I have not had this email, what address did it come from.?

Efpv noreply@givenergy.co.uk

Let's face reality, a subscription isn't even possible. This is a fantasy.

GivEnergy does not currently have our bank or credit card details. They don't even have a billing system. And they don't have any technical staff left capable of implementing such a system.

How to collect money? To become a direct debit originator, you need approval from your sponsoring bank and to demonstrate you are a financially secure business. So direct debits are not happening. To collect card payments you need a merchant account. This is easier but not straightforward, not just anyone is allowed to charge your bank cards. Maybe we will all be asked to post a cheque payable to CASH?!

The portal currently has no way to track who has paid and who hasn't and key technical staff behind the portal left long ago.

Probably not, but if they go bump, the company taking them over might have those skills and access to such payment facilities?

And presumably we couldn't claim it was free for life as we'd be lucky just to have working systems following administration?

adskankster Yep got the e-mail yesterday.
I'm not taking the survey or signing up for the subscription because I'm looking to replace my GE kit. This is not what I signed up for so GE moving the goalposts is the final nail in the coffin for me.

The issue I have is this would put yet more stress on customer support. You'll have not particularly techie users trying to play with home assistant and GivTCP and just calling support when it goes wrong. You'll have regular uses who might want to say update the firmware, or restart their inverter because GivTCP has crashed (happens occasionally for me), all calling support. Every single tiny little issue will just be loaded onto support. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen given they marketed cloud access as free forever. IMO the best move would be to leave existing customers as they are and just restrict historical data (maybe 60 days), and then charge any new customers going forward, that way people can make an informed decision at the time of purchase.

How to close down a cloud portal:

1. Write a long email that looks like spam.
2. Hide a link to a survey well down the email but not at the end.
3. Send the email out in bulk so it gets caught by spam filters.
4. Design a survey highlighting free options and then asking about payment.
5. Lose as many of the responses as you can.
6. Declare not enough interest in subscription option to make it viable.
7. Close the portal.
8. Blame the customers because they wouldn't pay.

Conspiracy or Incompetence?

Rubikcube I think this is an important reality check. Worst case is that it's a cynical cash grab before the final demise, best case is that it's an attempt to bridge a gap while a reorganisation happens - but with limited plans or indeed resources to achieve it. As you say, the main technical guys bar a couple, left a while back.

If that's not bad enough, how are folk expecting Giv to recover from all of this? Installers, in large part, won't touch them now and there's no gear at wholesalers. Where's the sustainability there? To stand any chance at all, surely someone needs to take them over and demonstrate that there's a sustainable future with an immediate improvement in customer services and a new product pipeline. Without that, it's over isn't it? If not now, then soon? I don't think the folk who are posting optimistically on Facebook realise what's happening but hopefully they're right and we're wrong. I fear not.

I'm sticking with my plan to run using Home Assistant/Rubik app for the time being but with a contingency to switch to new gear if necessary. A couple of my trusted local suppliers reckon they can do a battery/inverter switch quite quickly if needed, my array is fine. It's a clusterf#ck for sure - and a potentially expensive one.

I'm afraid that in the final field of the survey (anything else we should know), I gave a small lecture on the ability of a company to survive without sales, the ability to generate sales without installer support and the ability to have installer support without a functioning support department.
I offered a solution which involved delegation and/or the sole director stepping down...

How much of the original purchase price do people think was accounted for the ongoing costs to provide the compute of the cloud services? Adjusted for say 10yrs inflation and rising costs.

Without subscriptions it's a ponzi scheme and with little to no new sales (so many cases of poor support damaging the brand) to feed the process and bring in new revenue it will collapse.

As a Givenergy customer, do I like it, no, but with my basic understanding of economics I realise funding of services can't always be met from new customers alone and it's impossible to build in costs at the point of sale for things with no defined end date and are not fixed cost.

The mistake is starting free for an ongoing service and then clumsily trying to bring in subscription(s). This is a big problem with cloud services, no one wants to actually pay for the compute to deliver it yet everyone wants a "free" service indefinitely. If you don't pay, you are the product to be sold.

IMHO Giv should bring out an official simple home assistant or similar local "box" for the masses to keep control local. As well as tier subscriptions, I've no need for bells and whistles but would pay a token amount just incase my home assistant setup dies on me.

Could be worse though, could be sigenergy who effectively self destruct with no phone home connectivity, at least we can retain local control. For now, if you're into conspiracies.

Stever GE is done. Anyone who thinks they'll still be around by the end of the year is hopelessly naive.

All of this is preparing the ground for software assets to be transferred to the director's chosen phoenix company when they go bust. It's not about sustainability.

Vestas I said should (not will), having ideas/wishes for improvement isn't naive, I try to avoid self-fulfillling prophecies where I can, rather than making more holes in a sinking ship.

Thinking a service with on-going (and increasing) costs required to provide it can be funded from a one-off purchase is naive, and that goes for both GE and customers alike.

Vestas end of the year is very optimistic. 😆

(Or did you mean end of the financial year 😁)

TX200 I think personally it'll be July - I think GE will default on the loan "GE Property" made to them and then the sole director of both companies will file for adminstration after transferring "GE Software" assets to Powerdog.

I wonder if any of the lawyers can offer a view?
Givenergy only supplied the hardware and support(!) service.
Surely our contract is with the installer?
If the installer has gone bust and you paid by credit card, would there be a claim against the credit card company for breach of contract?

Rubikcube Actually, I think it would be possible. There are third-party Direct Debit providers, such as GoCardless, who manage taking payments for you without you needing an SUN.

Vestas Realistically this is the likely scenario. But I can't see how 'powerdog' survive either.

You have a captive, but declining, user base.

A significant portion (although not the majority by any means) will have the ability to jump to local control. It was one of the big selling points of GE - how well integrated it was - certainly sold me on working with Octopus, with Home Assistant, with most of the solar control systems out there. But the people who sign up on those reasons are going to be the people who can more naturally get home assistant, pred bat, bbc app etc up and running.

So imagine they start with 1000 users (made up number of course) who might pay. 20% don't read the email and don't use the portal - they just go on and don't notice it's gone. Let's say another 30% opt for local control - so we're down to 500 potential paying users.

Of those 500 potential paying users - in any one year - there's going to be 10-20% hardware failure rate and no way to replace it. That failure rate will ramp with age. So even if you only lose 10% per year to hardware failure - you're down to 30% of your original payable customer base within 5 years.

That assumes everyone pays, that assumes people don't rip-replace anyway out of spite and that assumes that the hardware failure rate stays static at 10% (which it won't).

This isn't a model for a successful business.

The only reason these portals work is that they are subsidised by ongoing hardware sales and that the running cost for the portal is suitably low. GE has churned through 3 different generations of inverter and battery since my Gen 1 was installed only 4 years ago. Not only have they lost the trust of their installers, but they have a massively diverse hardware base that requires support.

Without ongoing hardware sales - this is a dead end.

Final thought - solar should be a value add to any property - but a potential buyer walking up and seeing unsupported batteries and inverters will just see a cost of replacement regardless of how old it is. So I'd imagine people selling properties with GE kit in will be replacing too.

MikeyHaz Grid balancing/VPP controlled by Powerdog or high subs.

GE have (very) roughly about 400MWh of customer battery supply under their control with about 150MW peak output power.

You can make a LOT of money with that and of course no warranties, support or manufacturing - its basically pure profit.

"What’s changing

To continue operating the platform sustainably, we’re moving to a model which - I hope you’ll agree - is simple, fair and transparent:

Local access remains free, forever"

Basically saying pay up or go find a PC and learn home assistant.

Putting basic access to your system through a subscription is going to land them in trouble and I fully intend to take this as far as I can if they put this through, I was an early adopter, keep getting ignored and ghosted like a bad date by both GE and my installer.

Just a shame I never purchased any part of this on a credit card, I need to apply for a credit card.

They are still ghosting me like a bad date about this as well, same issue ive had for 3 years

When battery gets to 4% 2nd pack is always 0.2-0.3v lower than the other two.

A good sales team and product will always sell. However it's the support side that will keep customers coming back. Unfortunately GE are a victim of not having any resilient structures in place. If the recent email is to be believed the existing customer base is expected to fund the support and or company. Given most of not all were under the impression that the app/portal were there for the life of the product. I for one will not pay for a flawed system. I will continue to email and phone them ever time I have an issue and need a software update as my inverter does not update remotely. GE won't talk to me as an installer but expect me to update software where I maybe expose to high voltages i.e. open the battery cover to update which goes against health and safety. I have lead a technical support team for medical devices for decades and would soon loose the company/NHS business if it was run like GE

Jellybaby When battery gets to 4% 2nd pack is always 0.2-0.3v lower than the other two.

Irrelevant if the Amp-hours to/from each battery match their capacity fairly closely.

Vestas July... Nah, I was closest. Just after the end of financial year. 😁😢

TX200 It'll take a month or two for the phoenixing to occur so could be mid-June by the time its done 😃

We could always buy them out given the knowledge on here, well at least we couldn't do a worse job or could we🤔

Cheque please 🤦

I have just looked at the community emails and somewhat concerned about the state of giv energy etc.

Whilst my system has been performing ok for the last two years using Octopus R&D app to optimise charging of battery using my Octopus Agile tarrif I think I now need to look at using some other option to control the battery and inverter.

Can I ask for your views on what you consider to be the easiest tools to look after the Giv Energy system if they do fold in the future.

Not a techy so ease keep it simple (if thay is at all possible)

There is a big thread on this here.

If you have an Android phone then the easiest solution is to install https://www.givenergymonitor.co.uk/

It runs locally so does not require GivEnergy infrastructure in the cloud.

We were in the identical position and now are comfortably on an Android tablet with local control. It’s easier than octo R&D
Have a look at other topics on this forum and you’ll find lots of other ideas

Thanks for the info, I found this app via another thread yesterday, downloaded and installed, paid for the extra bit and can now charge / discharge the battery without the Giv Energy app or portal, only downside is that it is local control and not available via Web.

Not quite as useful as the Octopus R&D app as this will charge your battery for either a set number of Agile tariff half hour periods or a number of periods where the tariff is below a certain rate. For example today I requested Octopus R&D to charge for any half hour periods where the cost is less than 2p per kW, which was from Midnight to 4pm.

At least I have an alternative if the worst case scenario happens.

JOHN_ELEY Those cases are ones Predbat is perfect for. It does require a bit more set up, Home Assistant either on the hardware they sell for the purpose or something like a Raspberry Pi.
Once you have that set up GivTCP to communicate locally with the inverter and then Predbat to manage the battery charging and discharging. You can also integrate it with Solcast to make decisions based on forecast solar, and it supports grid carbon intensity forecasts if you would like to use that as a decision factor.

I think the biggest mistake I made at first was going straight from zero to predbat. As predbat needs historical data to do its thing and a fresh install was too fresh.

Second time around I setup GivTCP and let it run for a few weeks. Then installed predbat and had a much better time. Plus I smoothed out my home assistant setup in that time

Thanks for the suggestions, not sure I would be able to setup Predbat and Home Assistant these days (getting a little long in the tooth). Presumably these would only work as standalone local tools, all be more sofisticated than the app I have downloaded.

According to the latest email from Giv Energy, we will be able to pay for a "month at a time" for premium services. I may go with that option when I go on holiday so that I can control when away from home and during the winter months when there is not much solar output available.

Duti g summer months, April to October I can probably manahe to control the battery locally.

Just a thought