INITIAL GIV-Energy INSTALL VIA EON

Hi folks,
Not sure if this helps or not as it depends on how you acquired your Giv Energy system, I had mine installed via Eon in Aug 2023, at the time I didn't know much about Solar/batteries and went on their recommendation, other than wanting a decent battery 9.5kw , my inverter I've since learnt could've of been bigger only 3.6 (5 better in hindsight) but it works. I contacted them today as technically Ive paid EON, so from consumer rights point of view wanted to know where I stand knowing Giv Energy is going the way of the DoDo.
They're reviewing the situation currently to customers who have bought from them, I've been advised if I have any issues with battery and inverter to call them for engineer support, until something solid is in place. Just thought I'd bring it up just in case anyone else on here had their install via Eon aswell, I know this won't help everyone regrettably.

Another one got via Eon, and same, in hindsight a 5kw inverter would have been better. I did see some references somewhere to a "soft mod" that allowed some 3.6's to behave as 5's depending on the age of them (same hardware, just soft locked?)

TimI Yes, just a software setting for many/most/all between 3.68 and 5.0 and G98 vs G99

wrighar Any knowledge of what it is, where it can be software changed? Interested as a 3.6 user really wishing i had a little more power from it at points.

TimI By rights, you’d need to apply for G99 approval, and wait for your DNO to dictate your max export power, before you could even entertain re-rating your inverter.

TimI Keep in mind if you have G98 approval from the DNO you would need to make sure you set an export limit to keep your export to within the agreed level and even then the DNO might not be very happy. I would contact them first to make sure software limits are acceptable. That would potentially still allow you to use more solar energy within the home without clipping, or battery plus solar, but that's it.

pwdst Thankfully although I’ve 3.6kw inverter I do have G99 compliance, so wondering if it is potentially ok for future upgrades to a 5kw inverter. If the inverter ever needed replacing does this G99 application need submitting again ? (Hypothetically speaking)

Neal720 Yes. You are supposed to inform the DNO when you install or remove generation/storage equipment, doesn't matter whether its G98 or G99.

pwdst Yep, thats fair, wasn't bothered by increased export, just being able ot use more in the home if it was even possible/doable/updatable without giv etc.

Anyone got any information on the 3.6 upgrade to 5? Is this just a software/firmware change? That could be a game changer for my friend who would have no issues getting a G99 but more importantly, won't be able to get a 5 from giv energy anymore

jon22 Anyone got any information on the 3.6 upgrade to 5?

Whilst GivEnergy remains in business, it is not allowed.

Rubikcube ...and if the DNO catches people doing it without a G99 then they open themselves to pretty much unlimited costs, never mind the fact you're invalidating house insurance etc.

jon22 Anyone got any information on the 3.6 upgrade to 5? Is this just a software/firmware change?

Certainly on the Gen 1 inverters, the change from a 3.6 to a 5 is a configuration change within the inverter. I suspect other inverters are the same, it makes inventory control simpler if there are less physical inverter types, but I have no experience of other inverter types.

However, the ability to change the inverter setting is something that is not open to end consumers and I believe not open to installers either. After all they could buy the cheaper 3.6 inverters from their wholesaler and reconfigure them to be the more valuable 5kW models. The ability to change the inverter setup is something I believe is only available to GivEnergy.

Doubtless it is held somewhere in a register or set of registers in the inverter, but if you don't know what you are doing then you risk bricking the inverter if you misconfigure it. I have also heard that under approval regs that the inverter is manufactured under, its not supposed to be end user changeable. Same with export limit.

Plus as others have said it requires prior DNO approval.

geoffreycoan The DNOs have been getting increasingly concerned about software controlled power profiles and the lack of control over those profiles.

For example if my Gen1 3.6kW got a s/w change to 5kW then it'd break the G98 limit. Reason? Nobody sets the export limit on a G98 inverter and in this case (G1 inverter) its at the default of 6kW.

While the chances of getting caught doing this are (currently) vanishingly small, the costs/damages are unlimited and retrospective. Its entirely possible (not with GE now obv) this could happen inadvertently via a f/w update which resets setting inappropriately.

In future I think it'll be a firmware "fuse" blown at install which sets the power limits.

Vestas While the chances of getting caught doing this are (currently) vanishingly small, the costs/damages are unlimited and retrospective. Its entirely possible (not with GE now obv) this could happen inadvertently via a f/w update which resets setting inappropriately.

Then I wonder if we are heading towards a world where a house sale requires certification that the install spec is still valid? Imagine buying a house with an inverter/battery that had been "amended", leaving the unknowing new owner on the hook.

Or I guess the seller could just disable the kit and leave it that way when they go. So if the new owner chooses to turn it back on then that's their problem.

Smart meter is an easy telltale.
Meter registered to a house with G98.
Was exporting before upto 3.6kWh per hour
Now mysteriously exports 5...

I had this conversation over on discord. I get people's curiosity but 'its only one inverter' mentality doesn't work when people get greedy and there's 100k installs.

Oh and there's a counter in the inverter - so it knows how many times it's been changed.

Rubikcube

While I have a 5KW model (G3), I know the 3.68 ones are the same and just software limited.

I've always been interested in the quoted 6kW limit, assuming somewhere they were sold like that.

I know mine runs 5200VA to get 5kW to the home export, and I've heard someone had theirs upped a little as they demonstrated a bigger home base load.

I am not convinced the DNO's really know what is installed and what isn't.

I had a 4kW FIT array installed 10 years ago, so in modern parlance that is a G98, notification after install. But back then, I'm not sure there even was any notification method to the DNO.

When I had my GivEnergy inverters installed, the DNO G100 was for a 10kW export limit which was approved. I queried about the FIT 4kW but the installer said that the DNO would already know about this - I'm not so sure.

But its all a bit moot anyway because the panels are on different orientations and I'll never get 14kW generated at once, the most I have ever seen is 8-9kW, and given my current high grid voltage I can't export more than about 3-4kW without the inverters shutting off anyway. But that's a different issue with the DNO.

PianSom Imagine buying a house with an inverter/battery that had been "amended", leaving the unknowing new owner on the hook.

Then you'd sue the previous owners for any costs/damages, same as you would if they'd bodged the electrics and faked a cert.

Vestas Then you'd sue the previous owners for any costs/damages, same as you would if they'd bodged the electrics and faked a cert.

I would, of course, take legal advice, but I have always assumed that if I bought a house (without doing an electrical survey, or without a warranty from the sellers that the wiring was at spec), then if the sellers had done something "bodged" to the wiring it would be my problem, not theirs, after completion. Just like damp or a structural problem I or my buildings surveyor hadn't spotted pre-purchase.

Not sure where your thinking on fake certification came from, but if they provided forged evidence that I relied on then yes, I would imagine in that case they would be liable for my costs. But IANAL.

If a seller has presented paperwork indicating a install compliant with DNO G98/99 limitations and has "hacked" restricted inverter registers themselves and not informed buyers then I absolutely think they could be liable.

If I knowingly present paperwork representing X as fact when the reality is Y then that is fraud.

pwdst If a seller has presented paperwork indicating a install compliant with DNO G98/99 limitations and has "hacked" restricted inverter registers themselves and not informed buyers then I absolutely think they could be liable.

Maybe. Maybe not.

It’s a question that a buyer should ask of their conveyancer.

PianSom The law changed several years ago in E&W and vendors are legally obliged to disclose ALL information they know regarding the property. If you deliberately conceal ANY facts which the buyer may consider relevant then you are liable for costs up to the value of the property.

You have more rights buying a second-hand house than a new-build now.

Vestas
I am very happy to concede that you guys know far more than I do, but I'm not sure you are getting the gist of my point. Let me try and clarify with examples; here are two property transactions from my recent past:

• a couple of years ago I bought a house from an elderly couple who then emigrated to Australia. Goodness knows where they are now, or even if they are still alive.
• a year or two before that I helped my elderly, dementia-impaired (and now deceased) mother sell her house; many of her answers on her T6A form were "Don't know" - much to the annoyance of the buyer. She was simply unable to recall the most basic facts about the house.

Let's imagine that both properties had installed in them electrical kit which was "hacked" (or firmware updated or settings amended) so that at the point of sale it no longer meets the specs that were in place on installation. And then the new owners start using the kit. The sellers both withheld information - let's say deliberately (and so liable) in the first case, and unknowingly (a reasonable defence?) in the second. But actually in both scenarios any potential ability to sue the seller for losses is of little/no practical help to the new owners. (BTW it's very easy to imagine other examples eg where the seller has become bankrupt or has limited assets.)

If the "costs/damages are unlimited and retrospective", as Vestas says they are, then that is a very serious and unknown risk to anyone who buys a house with solar inverter/batteries.

Hence my original question: I wonder if we are heading towards a world where a house sale requires certification that the install spec is still valid? In that case the buyer could take action against whoever provided the PI cover for the certificate provider.

PianSom I wonder if we are heading towards a world where a house sale requires certification that the install spec is still valid?

That's along the same lines of a survey which is basically "we don't know anything about plumbing/electrics, get it checked by someone who does".

In theory there's a paper trail for PV/ESS at the DNO (since G98/99/100 anyway) and there's definitely certificates from a sparky somewhere backing that up. If the equipment doesn't match the spec - ie different equipment/outputs/etc - then that's on the vendor.

In terms of tracking them down/suing then that's fairly easily done and there's no end of solicitors/lawyers who'll happily do this on a no-win no-fee basis. Depends on case strength obviously. Vendors don't simply "disappear", they leave a financial trail behind them, no matter where they go.

"costs/damages are unlimited and retrospective" - that applies to anything to do with the property, not just solar and has for some time. Proving knowledge is usually quite easy - most DIY bodges (for example) have something which indicates the timescale it took place and whether that was when the vendor owned the property.

If the DNO went after the new owner for damages caused by excess export then the new owner would be daft not to go after the vendor for those damages plus costs.

Edit - in terms of liability/defence, your mother's condition doesn't really matter. If something was concealed which has cost the buyer money to fix then your mother* is liable. Eg - say she forgot it had subsidence years before? Should the buyer just accept that if it costs them thousands?

*mother's assets really

Vestas
I’m afraid I don’t know enough about either conveyancing or probate law to offer a useful opinion

PianSom or probate law to offer a useful opinion

Nor do I in E&W as I've never been an executor here, but its certainly possible to bring a claim for damages against an estate after probate in Scotland. Basically (from what I remember) the beneficiaries of an estate are on the hook for 7 years* potentially - in terms of damages, not in terms of who got what, that's 12 months in Scotland (or was), 6 months in E&W.

*I have a vague memory of it being tax years, not calendar years