EV Charger Data connections

Hi
I'm keen on ordering the forthcoming GE EV charger for my car (on order) and have questions about the data connection side which i can't find answers for anywhere.

What are the connectivity options for the EV charger? What is essential for its use?

The installation manual mentions it's posible to directly wire the charger to the comms port on the inverter, but what cable is this, does it have a model number, and is it essential? Details missing from the manual...

"Additionally, the charger can be wired directly to the GivEnergy inverter into the meter communication port so that the charger can be controlled by the inverter (coming soon)."

Even if i have this special cable, do i still need a wifi or lan connection to the EV charger for it to fully operate?

I have a rubbish wifi signal where the box will be located so would prefer to use ethernet. Is this possible? Despite an LAN connection being listed in the specs, the available schematics don't show where the connection port is! Internal, i assume?

I wish to fully integrate the EV charger and it's dynamic charging options (ECO (solar excess) and ECO+ etc) with my GE HY3.6 inverter and battery, plus pull all the activity data into Home Assistant.

I'll shortly be drilling my walls to bring a ethernet cable out to the inverter, and need to know if i should be putting in a second line ready for the EV charger?

Cheers!
darren

When I spoke to Tech Support today about another matter they said they were working on the EV Charger but there is no eta on when that will be coming to market.
I suspect that until they are close to launch any information is likely to be at worst conjecture or at best subject to considerable change.

dp100 I believe the GE EV charger is specified to connect to the inverter Modbus over a shielded twisted pair connection (connected at the inverter or at the EM115 meter). Many installers use one pair of a cat 5/6 STP cable for this duty although you can buy dedicated single pair STP cable as well.

Some EV chargers use CT connections which also rely on STP twisted pair cable to carry the signal from grid and/or solar CT to the charger. For example, our Zappi charger came with a grid CT and we fitted a solar CT and both signals are carried to the charger over one Cat 5 STP cable. The STP bit is to shield the data signal from extraneous interference from adjacent power cables (eg EV charger) by connecting the shield to earth at one end or the other (but not both).

When you get your power cable installed, just ask your installer to run a STP cat5/6 cable alongside (or two if it's to an outbuilding/garage etc for local LAN access should you need it in future).

magician2905

Thanks for the comment.

I must admit i'm disappointed by GE's public lack of clarity over the availability of the GE charger.
Multiple distributors/outlets have it listed as being available for delivery at the end of Sept, and that must be based on Info previously released by GE.

They also shouldn't have the charger visible in the app or on the website it's its not available soon. It's just misleading and i've personally skipped the chance to get a reduced price other brand charger bundled with my EV order in the hope that GE's will be available in the same timeframe. My own fault...

At least they've had the forethought to not overly advertise their long overdue solar diverter nor the 'smart plugs'

Tim
Hi Tim
Thanks kindly for this info!

Based on what you know about the data cable link between and the EV charger box and the Inverter Modbus,
will the charger unit require any additional data connections (e.g WIFI) to work, or is the single pair enough?

My EV box will not be far away from my externally mounted inverter so running a cat STP cable won;t be an issue.
However, i'll be drilling a hole in my wall to externalise a LAN cable to connect my incoming Gen 2 inverter (so i can move way from wifi).
From your description, it sounds like I won't need to externalise a second LAN cable specifically for the charger as that will daisy chain into the LAN connected inverter.

cheers!
darren

Does anyone who took part in the EV charger trial willing to comment about the data connections and their experience with the EV box, assuming you are not bound by a NDA??

Given it’s appearance and dimensions are changing from the Beta ones I guess even feedback from those people may not be valid. What’s changed on the inside to necessitate external changes?

dp100 additional data connections (e.g WIFI) to work, or is the single pair enough?

Don't know is the short answer. I don't know any more about the product than anyone else. From what has been mooted, just the Modbus connection is needed for the inverter to control the charger. However, I was watching a YouTube video on the installation of an Indra charger yesterday and that has terminals for remote CTs and Ethernet. 10Mbps Ethernet can run over two pairs, so in theory, you could run two CTs and one 10Mbps Ethernet connection over a single Cat5/6 cable. However, for what it costs, I'd hedge my bets and just run two lengths of Cat5/6. If one is never used, it's cost pennies but if you wanted to change to a smarter charger in the future you might be able to save the disruption of installing more cable then. Just remember to run the second cable with the one from your inverter to wherever your router/LAN switch is located.

You can get purpose made EV charger cable 4mm, 6mm with integrated RS485 pair, or even 4 pair Cat6. Toolstation sell it, made by Doncaster cables. Think if I ever upgrade or move my inverter, I will give this a try, over T+E or SWA

I am interested in this charger too and waiting to see if I can find any reviews of it. Bumping this thread to hope someone on beta test can talk about it as it is supposed to be available on the 22nd Sept?

It is interesting re "our installers will answer any questions" on the GE website. I live in the South of England and have received no responses from 8 approved installers about installing a second battery. If they are not interested in installing a second battery I wouldn't even bother at this stage to ask them questions about the EV Charger. I too share comments about GE communication to their customers - a pity as the equipment looks good (I have a battery/inverter system) but perhaps GE is suffering from the classic british 'tick in the box' and its done. How on earth can they have a product featured on their website for months with the unchanging tag - Coming Soon? Is there a Product Manager for this product, is it actually being managed? Rant over - apologies but this is annoying. EV weeks away from arrival!

M_J
Hi
I rang the GE HQ the week before last to get a idea of availability, and unfortunately was told it's expected at the very end of the year, maybe early 23, due to continued supply issues. The 22nd Sept on Midsummer and others is a guessitimate placeholder date it seems.

I'm going to try and get by on a 3kw 13amp socket charger as id' rather wait and have a fully inetrgrated EV charger than risk a mismatached confog from trying to inetrgrate a different brand...

dp100 , the most you should draw from a UK 13 Amp socket is 10 Amps continuous for the sort of time periods required to charge an EV or PHEV, so 2.4 kW at 240 Volts.

May be think about using the socket included in a cooker switch as it has a dedicated feed cable from the consumer unit, unlike a 32 Amp ring main which by definition has multiple connection points and potential for overheating due to poor/loose connections. Either that or a dedicated socket with its own feed cable and brand new socket for the best contact possible to the plug.

I have found that running at 10 Amps causes the L+N pins on the 13 A plug to get pretty hot, so have played safer by setting the PHEV car to the reduced charging rate of 6 Amps (nominal 1.4 kW). This significantly reduces the temperature of the plug pins due to the I2R heating effect (so 6x6xR, rather than 10x10xR).
Also I have only used the granny cable charger during the day when present, and certainly not overnight or unattended.
Your granny charger cable/unit may have the facility to adjust the current from 10 to 8 or 6 Amps rather than setting in the car.

The PHEV only has an 11 kWh battery, so around 9 hours to fully charge at 1.4 kW.
A full EV with a 50 to 70 odd kWh battery is another matter.

If you are determined to have the GE charger, then you could also consider getting your spark to wire in a switchable 32A Commando socket at the proposed location. This could later be removed and replaced by the GE unit when it is finally released.
The Tesla universal charger that used to be supplied with the car can be fitted with a 32A Commando plug adapter. This will give you 7kWh charging, though obviously without any smart capabilities.

I like this (temp) idea - especially as EV due to arrive soon. Can you give me some more details please? When I had the battery/inverter installed I asked the electrician to install a point in my garage for a future EV (the future being now!). So .... in my garage I have a fuse box with a 32A MCB sitting ready for a charger. I can run a 10A cable to the point where I would like the charger to be. What equipment would I need?

Zakalwe
Thanks kindly for this suggestion.

I wasn't aware of this potential 'stop gap' solution, and look into it!
As for the missing 'smart's, I know I have the ability to schedule charging using the remote app for the car, which would also work as a stopgap.

Cheers!

Simon_C
Hi Simon.
Thanks for this - you raise many excellent points, which I hadn't considered, such as the electrinical/heat risk from a continuous 13A draw.

My only external 13amp socket (weather proof box) is a spur from my downstairs ring main (with lots of stuff on), so now I'm concerned about heating the plug, AND exceeding the limit on that ring.

I've just been through the Cupra Born manual and found a mention that I can force the car down to 8A charging mode, which although will be slow, should be fine for my daily mileage, and a lot safer...

Thinking about this, i'm going to get a sparky to put my EV cable run (with a ethernet cable as well) on a dedicated 32A line, in advance of a dedicated EV smart charger, and either terminate in a switched 13A socket (to use with the supplied granny charger) OR consider the excellent 'commando' socket idea of Zakalwe IF i can source a 2nd granny charger for this use (its a lease car plus the 13amp plug will be useful when travelling).

You can also consider the Ohme cable (you can get that as a 32A commando plug)
Also grants you access to the Intelligent tariff so 6 hours of cheap charging if you have a large battery install.

I can only speak for Tesla's as I am not that familiar with other makers charging kit. If you have a Tesla Gen 2 UMC you can get a 32A Commando adapter that plugs straight into the Tesla unit.
To get hold of one, you need to email orderpartsuk@tesla.com and send them your RN number or VIN, postal address, and a telephone number - they will then call you to take payment over the phone. It's £39.99 including next day delivery (only option).
If you get your spark to install a 32A Commando socket in your garage (one with a rotary switch and interlock to prevent the cable being disconnected when under load) you will then have a solution that will charge at the same rate as smart home charger-7kWh.
This will also be able to charge any other BEV with a CCS socket.
You will be able to set the charging times in the in-car application.

dp100 AND exceeding the limit on that ring

The ring will be protected by a 32A MCB, so as far as current draw goes, you'd be OK. The issue of heat generation is the same with a 3kW electric heater and the reason why the Fire Service is keen that, if it essential that such devices are used, they are plugged into the domestic wall socket directly and not through any form of adapter. However, we had a free safety check by a local firefighter who cringed at our four slot toaster and advised that only one side at a time was ever used. I'm not knocking the advice because he'd probably been to many house fires where poorly maintained wiring or appliances had been the cause of a fire. The long and short is that properly terminated and maintained electrical equipment can give many years satisfactory service but they do need to be checked from time to time.

dp100 a dedicated 32A line

Good idea. You could potentially also connect an external 13A socket off the same supply to give you the flexibility of using the 13A supply for charging (or an electric strimmer or vacuum cleaner for the car etc), or the 32A EV charger. The Zappi has a feature to limit the supply current to a set value. Our Zappi is at the end of 6mm2 SWA with a 40A MCB in the consumer unit. In theory, we could put a CT onto that supply, set the Zappi supply limit to 40A and use the same supply for a granny charger connected to a 13A socket. If the granny charger was in service at 10A, the Zappi would limit itself to 30A to maintain the supply.

dp100 'commando' socket idea

This is indeed a good idea as long as the EV is specified to operate with no intelligence on the supply side. I know the Zappi does some handshaking with the EV before starting but have no idea whether our EV would need an intelligent charger to work. However, removing a 13A plug-top and hard-wiring the granny charger into a (waterproofed) switched fused outlet would remove the concern over the plug connection overheating.

hoggy: Had a quick look at the Ohme cable - looks expensive for my temp solution. Do you know if there is a non-smart option?

Zakalwe: This looks like a cheap option (@£40) - do you know if there is such a thing for a non Tesla user?

I think I'm looking at something like a 32A Commando socket and a dumb CSS attachment(?)

At the moment I'm planning on using the GE Charger (when it arrives!) so would like to avoid buying things like the zappi due to cost/waste. Still confused if it is possible for me to have a 7kw charger for the EV, at a reasonable cost, as an interim before GE Charger.

Tim

This is indeed a good idea as long as the EV is specified to operate with no intelligence on the supply side. I know the Zappi does some handshaking with the EV before starting but have no idea whether our EV would need an intelligent charger to work.

The handshaking takes place between the car and the EVSE. It doesn't matter how that EVSE is supplied with electricity.

Zakalwe
I wonder if anyone from GE or any of the beta testers can comment if the GE EV charger has any 'car comms' ability so can perform 5his handshake???

I believe that alternatives like the Zappi, Ohmn Pro, and others can. It makes me wonder if this EV-Charger Comms uses a standard or if it proprietary for each brand of car???

dp100

dp100 I wonder if anyone from GE or any of the beta testers can comment if the GE EV charger has any 'car comms' ability so can perform 5his handshake???

I believe that alternatives like the Zappi, Ohmn Pro, and others can. It makes me wonder if this EV-Charger Comms uses a standard or if it proprietary for each brand of car???

The "handshaking" is defined as part of the CCS protocol. As part of the standard the car and EVSE will communicate over the CP pin using PWM for the Basic Signal and high frequency modulation for the High Level Communication. The Basic Signal control the energising of the power pins once it confirms that the connection is made and that both pieces of kit (car and EVSE) are ready to charge. The HLC controls higher functions such as car identity authentication.

CCS is an open standard so anyone making CCS EVSE can use the standard and communication protocols. Its why any car with a CCS socket can charge from any CCS charger (assuming the EVSE can authenticate that the car is allowed to charge- think Tesla Superchargers).

quarkrad

quarkrad This looks like a cheap option (@£40) - do you know if there is such a thing for a non Tesla user?

Yes- you just need a Type 2 32A mobile connector.
https://evonestop.co.uk/products/ev-charging-cable-type-2-to-32a-commando-7-2-kw-5-metre-mode-2

The advantage of the Tesla unit is that the plugs are swappable, so one charger will fit many different sockets- from 13A three-pins to 32A Commando and European domestic sockets.

A Commando socket and suitable Type 2 unit is probably the cheapest way to get 7kW charging at home.

https://youtu.be/VZC9_Xktkho

Zakalwe The cable has a device to control the charging current, so it isn't just a 32A Commando socket with a hefty cable to a Type 2 socket. Nevertheless, it can still charge at 7kW and for less than half the cost of a conventional wall-mounted EV charger (plus the interlocked Commando Socket). I'm not sure how the earthing arrangements are dealt with as I don't really understand the difference between PEN protection and an RCBO or RCD/MCB, so it'd still be one for a competent sparky to install I guess. Nice.

Tim

Tim The cable has a device to control the charging current, so it isn't just a 32A Commando socket with a hefty cable to a Type 2 socket.

LOL....I'd pay good money to see someone* wiring a 32A mains supply at 240V directly to a Type 2 and then plugging it in!

*From a distance, mind you. And plugging it in to someone else's car! 😀 😆

dp100 Thanks for the update and I see that you have posted on the EV Forum too (I think).

I am now highly pissed off and need to put in place a better solution than the granny charger for winter.

BTW with a Granny Charger it's about 30% loss of electric according to this video so a big extra cost / waste compared to doing it via a 7kwH charger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiCSnwoAs0c&t=552s

See his XLS at 7:48

BTW Level 1 is American for Granny Charger...

Zakalwe At the risk of asking a very naive question, why can't you use a Type 2 socket to straight 32A commando plug cable, I see that they are available. Is it beacuse you would be connecting the car directly to a full 7Kw load with no handshake or gentle ramp up? = Car is fried, or risk of electrouction due to lack of earth leakage protection.. -> i've read in other forums that using a Commando for EV charging needs extra things to satisfy 'code' like a dedicated earth rod, as there is no built in PEN protection.

I was intersted in the idea of terminating my 32A EV with a temporary Commando socket (until the GE EV charger is available) but seeing that most 'proper' 32A commando to Type 2 connctor cables have a control box in the middle (like the Ohmn) and costs several hundred quid, i'd rather put this cash towards the GE box repalcement later on.

Also, considering the electrician i've spoken to is less experienced with Commando's for Ev and is unsure about this approach, i'll likely stick to the simpler (albeit slower) external 13A socket stop gap.

I need to call GE again to get final clarification on the data cable requirements for their EV charger, and if it is like the manual suggests absolutely essential to run a wire to the EM115 meter (which will be a pain for me) or can i avoid this by wiring directly into the inverter modbus, using a twisted pair from a ethernet cable... I'm going to runa dedicated ethernet cable along the EV power line anyway..

Current verison of the instruction manual:

"Connecting the Communications Cable

_A two core shielded communication cable must be wired between the charger and the EM115 meter, in order for the charger to charge the vehicle from excess solar.

Additionally, the charger can be wired directly to the GivEnergy inverter in to the meter communication port so that the charger can be controlled by the inverter (coming soon)."__

dp100

dp100 At the risk of asking a very naive question, why can't you use a Type 2 socket to straight 32A commando plug cable, I see that they are available

I'm no expert, but I don't think that I have ever seen a Commando to Type 2 lead. Are you confused with Type 2 male to Type 2 lead for connecting to an untethered EVSE?
https://www.racshop.co.uk/5m-straight-single-phase-32a-type-2-to-type-2-ev-charging-cable.html

dp100 run a wire to the EM115 meter (which will be a pain for me) or can i avoid this by wiring directly into the inverter modbus

The EM115 is connected to the inverter over Modbus (even if using LORA). The Givenergy Charger needs to be a slave device on that bus and can be connected anywhere the Modbus is present. ie at the EM115 or at the inverter. I presume the Givenergy manual suggests the EM115 meter as the supply cable to the EV charger will likely be fed from the house consumer unit which will often be near the incoming DNO supply and therefore the EM115. If it is more convenient to connect at the inverter, then that should be fine too.

Slightly off topic but spoke with Marlec at the Solar show yesterday - they make the Solar iBoost Immersion Diverter - and are bringing an EV Charger out at the end of this/early next year.
I was told that it was delayed as the software was originally being written in the Ukraine, so the war kyboshed that!
Also they were fairly certain that Gen 1 would NOT communicate with the Solar iBoost so not sure how you prioritise heating your hot water or charging your car with excess solar.
But were not able to state whether it could be added later as a software update or whether it would require a new Gen 2 onwards model (ie hardware limited).
Also just as a "Public Service Announcement" thingy - Andersen EV Chargers went into administration this week. So probably a good idea to stay away from them as a solution.

Not sure where I've read this but something in my head tells me GivEnergy are working on an immersion heater product. If this is the case is the GivEnergy product related to the Marlec product? (E.g. will the GivEnergy product (if it is real) be a badged Marlec product?).

Its unlikely in all fairness. Marlec have just doubled their manufacturing ouput (that's as much as the factory can make) and they are still all sold until Feb 2023.
That would leave Immersun or My Energy's Eddi and neither of those have stock for sale. Dimplex used to make a product called Free-E, we managed to get hold of one on Ebay (new) but it didn't work, and was EOL for 3years or more. A mate grabbed one, the first packed in but the second is going strong still.
From what I can see there is not a ODM product on the market unlike a lot of Solar Inverters (you only have to compare the many white box products that look almost exactly the same).

I thought this was a discussion about the EV Charger and if/when it will be available. Any updates?

The new GE EV charger can draw 7kw , many of which will be drawn overnight ,, for 50 kWh car battery, presumably you can just about get a full charge within the Economy 7 period 12.00 to 7,00 am. Any one know if the charger can be controlled to take all the power from the (offpeak , usually )grid, or take , some, from your home GE 9.5battery? ( hardly worth it? Would only give you 30 miles? )

In the day time the EV battery could draw from the solar via the power hybrid inverter bu that’s limited to a draw off 3.68kw I think on a Gen 2 3.6 hybrid. That’s where the AIO really scores I think as it can at least do 6kw draw.

Will be interesting to hear how early adopters get on 😊😊😊

Bill G

billG just about get a full charge within the Economy 7 period 12.00 to 7,00 am

Unless you're doing 200 miles each day, either the battery won't be fully discharged when the off-peak timed charge starts, or it'll have enough charge for the following day travel, allowing the full charge to take place over two off-peak periods.

If the EV is at home and you have a hybrid inverter, you should be able to divert export to EV charging (certainly can with Zappi). I can't think of any reason why I would charge the Givenergy house battery (even AIO) and use that energy to charge the EV.

Why is there such a delay in launching this product if it has been in beta test for a year, and exhibited at shows earlier this year? I have had my new car for 3 months now, charging via the cooker socket, and its getting very tiresome, I have solar panels and GivEnergy inverter and battery - I love the ecosystem, but cant be expected to wait for ever...Octopus do offer some attractive alternatives, but I would have to learn 'Home Assistant' and have customer interfaces when that really shouldn't be necessary. To a lesser extent as its a nice to have for immersion control, same goes for dynamic control of the Smart Plug to direct based on solar/battery etc.

Mister-F I thought it should be a hit - looks like its a myth