Octopus Saving Session - GivEnergy Battery Set up changes?

OK so tonight between 5pm and 6pm Octopus wants folks to try and save energy. I have a GivEnergy battery and with the weather today I will have run out of battery before 3pm.

Just been looking at what I can do in setup to try and save some battery for the 5pm to 6pm window.

Looking for any advice on other solutions or suggestions on better ways to do this.

 Set a reserve level for the battery say 30% so the battery will discharge until 30% and then before 5pm I pop back into control panel and undo that 30% so it starts discharging.

Use the time discharge feature and try and calculate when best to set that going so this morning I don't get any battery power but I start the discharge at 5pm and then go back in and change settings once I know we can last longer.

Not sure there is any other way and each approach does mean going back in and changing settings. I guess the timer method means I don't need to do anything physical just before the 5pm window starts...

I won't use the GivEnergy app as it has proved to be unstable and not always made the changes.

Any other approaches?

I joined this too but they do not tell you how far back they compare the data too. Example last Tuesday I used 0.05kw grid between 5pm and 6pm. Because of this I will just do what they suggest and start cooking my dinner at 6pm and not turn on anything big during that time. If I knew what period of data they are going to compare against then I would be doing the same as you :-)

10 days...

BTW it looks like you have to disable eco mode to get battery to stop discharging when you set it up to use a discharge window.

The data they use from the e-mail yesterday

How do you calculate what I normally use?
We look at your smart meter readings to find out how much electricity you typically used at the same time of day over the previous 10 days (excluding days when there's been a Saving Session). Find out more in our FAQs.

M_J Ooo I didn't get an email. I got a notification on their app. Well thats me out then, only drained the battery once since October 26th.

Ok so yes you can set a reserve on your battery before you run out, then change the reserve again after 6pm. However there are some posts suggesting the reserve power is not currently working. But you should only need to change that one setting and as you say use the dashboard for settings changes.

I've got this as well, and seeing as I'm on a standard rate (despite asking several times to move onto Go) I've been purposefully charging my battery up each date between 4pm and 7pm. Today, I've set the charge between 3pm and 4.55pm so I can run full off my battery during the window.

Should hopefully see a reduction of around 2kWh during that time, netting me about £4 from what they say (1800 Octopus points per kWh saved, 1800 points is £2.25.

Might just stay on the standard rate for the mean time to maximise profit

I have been told that they look at the half hour before the save session starts. Therefore I will pause my battery between 16.30 and 17.00hrs and restart it after 17.00hrs, so there is a clear drop in use. GE engineer told me they have an automation for the app that should be released imminently.

From Octopus FAQ's about this

If the Session is on a weekday, we’ll look at your half-hourly usage over the last 10 weekdays (excluding saving session days). If the Session is on a weekend, we’ll look at your half hourly usage over the last 4 weekend days. These half hourly averages are then subject to an ‘In Day Adjustment’ which will make adjustments based on how much energy you’ve used on the day of the session.

There appears to be no details from Octopus about the 'In Day Adjustment'. I think they will look back over the last 10 says to confirm you have been a customer and then base your usage on the half hour prior to the session. Averaging over 10 days seems over complicated. Will wait and see how many points I earn tonight!

anthonypar in the trial they compared your usage during the session with your usage over the same block for the previous 10 days,

I've also opted in for this evening's session for between 5-6pm.
I can't see anything but is there anything for kicking energy back to the grid during this window? Thinking a force discharge could be helpful to the cause of what they're trying to achieve.
I'm on Go for import and the standard SEG 4.1p for export.

Not unless you are on Agile. On SEG you will just get the standard 4.1p

If the case is the 30mins prior to the session, then charge the battery tiled to end at 1 min to session start.
Add that extra 3kw (1.5kwh) aswell as cooking and washing in that period too. Then at teh session start, let the battery go in Eco mode and use lecy normally (under 3kw)

M_J

How do you calculate what I normally use?
We look at your smart meter readings to find out how much electricity you typically used at the same time of day over the previous 10 days (excluding days when there's been a Saving Session). Find out more in our FAQs.

Yet another poster said 30min before, which is easier, but less likely to be the true reading

anthonypar GE engineer told me they have an automation for the app that should be released imminently.

GE always have a fix for everything that will be released imminently...I think it's their company motto.

Well that was a bit of a balls up I choose to try method 1 and set a timed discharge and the battery went mad and did a full discharge to the Grid!!! Despite the option saying it would discharge to your house!!

I had disabled Eco mode as that was only way to stop it discharging when I first set this up. in future i will try method 2 and set a reserve % and then log on before the window to change the % to lower amount to full fill my power needs during the saving window.

Why not just charge it up for an hour or two before the window via an additional timed charge?

I don't see how I can make use of this initiative, but I've signed up anyway.
I have economy 7 for which I pay 15.62p/kWh between 0030 and 0730. I charge my two 9.5Kw batteries during that time slot and I find that they last through to the next window at 0030 if there is even a sniff of sunshine. If there isnt then I sometimes end up with a little peak rate usage, about 1kWh max towards midnight at my rate of 41.63p.
So having invested in a solar/battery system I've ruled myself out of this initiate.
Some you win, some you lose.

BarryForde

Hi I am not going to save heaps but see it as a chance to help a bit and you get entered into the draw for the £500 and based on the number of folk in the draw I bet it is better odds than the lottery...

If I do save any money I will gift it to Octopus to use on folk who are suffering as they offered that as an option last year when we had the chance of saving Gas usage.

JonB Interesting... that possibly explains the voltage drop here at about 16:30 through 'til about 18:12, the grid was obviously having a play!

SilverArt I shall take a look. Intriguing.

I took part in this energy shift yesterday by pausing eco mode once the sun started to go down and then switching it back on at 5pm and this seemed to work fine. However I was asked to reduce my use from 0.6 to 0.4 kWh as I guess my normal use in that hour has been pretty low over previous few days. I'm now wondering about setting the battery not to discharge from 4-7pm every day (expect during the energy shifts) so the baseline expectation is more realistic.

Is there any way to do a timed battery pause so I can automate this a bit?

Well, my results are in and charging my battery at peak time every day, then doing it earlier on the day of the session netted me £5.68!

You saved 1.965kWh and earned 4544 OctoPoints – worth £4.43.
You made an even bigger change than most – you were one of the top 10% of Savers, and have earned our Super Saver Bonus! That's an extra 1000 OctoPoints, worth £1.25.

How much did it cost to charge at peak time??

Seems like a load of hassle to gain a couple of quid.

I didn't imagine that I could really use much less and make any rewards. But shows how wrong that I can be!!
In the first session I cut down by 44% and my reward of 104 OctoPoints worth £0.13. I suppose every little helps.
I didn't try to do anything clever but just didn't boil the kettle during the session and, in a two adult household, we just occupied one room and were very fugal. Usually we would have drawn a small fraction of a kWh in that period as the house would have been supported by the battery. Having spent the capital on the GE battery and PV, saving import costs is only going to be minimal.

I'm on Go and charge my batteries at night when there's no solar. Here's my results.

• You saved 0.051kWh and earned 1096 OctoPoints – worth £0.12.
• You made an even bigger change than most – you were one of the top 10% of Savers, and have earned our Super Saver Bonus! That's an extra 1000 OctoPoints, worth £1.25.

No idea how this works, top 10% saving 0.051kWh

chickengeorge It's the percentagee saved. Even though you use hardly any power usually the percentage fall was high and in the top 10% of participants.

I earned 56 points, saving 79% energy against normal. Clearly my 79% was not enough to get me into the top 10%.

Where are you seeing the kWh saving? Web dashboard / App / Email?

My dashboard (on the website) says I saved 83%, and got 24 Octopoints worth £0.03. No mention of kWh.

In the original invitation email I received from Octopus it said that 1 kWh was worth 1800 OctoPoints.

Zakalwe regardless of how much it cost, there was very little solar to charge my battery so I charged the remainder from the grid - I would have used that as "on demand import" any way, so I haven't paid anything extra.

Rubikcube I got an email with my exact figures on

My Result, not a great amount saved but % wise compared to my normal was a good effort.

So IMO worth helping out and shows what every little bit helps.

• You saved 0.436kWh and earned 1792 OctoPoints – worth £0.99.
• You made an even bigger change than most – you were one of the top 10% of Savers, and have earned our Super Saver Bonus! That's an extra 1000 OctoPoints, worth £1.25.

Right guys, how to hack the system...
The average is taken for the previous 6 days including the slot before the turn off.
The 3 hours starting 4 hours before the turn off are added to the calculation.
You can use unlimited energy in that slot and it is divided by 6 to give you an average daily use.
If you pay less than 37p per KWH then you get unlimited amounts of energy for free (or paid) to take energy.

Working example...
You use 0 KWh normally during peak.
On the day they announce 5-6pm switch off.
Charge the battery / heat the house and generally use as much as you can...
12kwh extra usage for 1-4pm costs £4.08 if you are on the cap.
2kwh is octopus calculated the average for the past 6 days.
During the switch off you run off battery or export and your paid £5.50.

Thats 12KWh of energy used and an income of £1.42.

Octopus have the right to change the calculations moving forward.

Thanks, but I'll just have a rummage down the back of the sofa. I'm certain to find more than £1.42 without all that hassle and nonsense.

People install £5000 worth of batteries to store £3 work of electrons.
The original poster was worried about not having enough energy to get through the session, with the hack they can take part and also be paid to take energy.

This seems wrong, the idea is to cut usage not make money from it. 👎️

THALL The trial is to reduce demand in peak times, Agile on steroids.

hamilton But it can't make sense to increase demand at other times. Still means firing up coal power stations to meet demand etc.

I believe Octopus is conducting trials to help work out a system to manage a very complex UK grid with electric cars and intermittent renewable energy etc, so that we can come off hydrocarbons and avoid melting the planet. The "reward" for shifting energy usage is very generous, I believe, and is probably required to get people of their couches to actually do something. It is certainly not intended for "gaming" to make a few quid here and there.

wrefordj It actually a scheme set up by the National Grid across all energy suppliers. The idea is to hopefully reduce usage during peak times to ensure continuity of supply (ie ensure there are no blackouts) during the winter period and to, hopefully, reduce overall use as 40% of Electricity is generated using Gas Powered Turbines. With gas being a high cost, less available resource due to the war in Ukraine.

Am I the only one wondering the morality of people expressly increasing their peak demand in order to net a gain through this scheme? Really? And here was me thinking all us solar and battery types were trying to do our bit to save the damned planet . . .

cluelesscris I was thinking this too. The idea is to decrease demand, not increase it at other peak times to make a few quid.

And it literally is a few quid at best. I've found more on the pavement walking down the street.

I really don't understand why anyone who has the means to shell out £thousands for PV and batteries then goes to ridiculous lengths to twist and game a system just to "earn" one or two pounds.

Zakalwe We are all different and motivated by different things. I can see the attraction of working out the gaming strategy to optimise your resources. That the actual reward is relatively pennies (IMO) is beside the point. In some ways it's not really a pointless exercise as it will give Octopus and any other energy supplier insight into how they can motivate/help some individuals to mobilise behind the common cause. Maybe when the trial is over, they'll decide that their "cashback" tariff will only be available to people who genuinely use less energy rather than those who can store energy in the house or car batteries. We are all on time of use tariffs which already offers significant savings and to exclude us from their scheme would not be unfair (IMO).

I've been trying to load shift, to charge the batteries overnight to 80% and opportunistically top up from solar in preparation of the saving's hour. That is, I think, what Octopus would hope someone with batteries would do. The buggy app and website settings (discussed in other threads) have meant that it's never quite worked right. Either the battery has been tapped into at the wrong time and needed recharging at (not quite peak) times, or it has charged to full from the grid and then set itself either to full export to grid or no discharge at all. It's all meant rather than set in advance and forget it's become something I need to babysit.
Sigh. Still, at least Octopus seem to be doing the right thing.

cluelesscris Zakalwe what about those who are on an EV tariff (Go) without an EV to charge their batteries up? They are literally savings pennies per kWh, is that not a way of "gaming" the system to save a few pounds? And although solar & storage is a great way to save the planet, it's also a great way to save/earn money... once it's paid off of course 😀

They shouldn't be on Go if they don't have an EV, so yes, they are gaming the system.

Cdent Not at all. Those people are truely load shifting in the right direction and in line with all current objectives of the 'Saving Sessions' and the advice of the industry and government. Deliberately bumping peak usage all week to potentially save on one session is entrely counter to the objectives and if tons of people do it will require more use of fossel fuels and not less - not to mention putting additional pressure on peak loads on more days, increasing the risk of power rationing. It's not 'gaming' par se that is objectionable but 'gaming' attempts to encourage load shift for the best reasons by doing the opposite.

On the Octopus site the Go FAQs even have this:

### Can I use my cheap charging period for anything other than charging my car?

• Of course! During this four hour period, any electricity you use will be charged at 12p / kWh.
• You can even automate stuff to come on using smart plugs and neat, simple to set up integrations with Alexa and IFTTT – check out some smart home hacks from our brilliant customers.

So, whilst the strict rules are it's only for EV owners - it's not retricted to EV charging.

cluelesscris @Zakalwe interesting you both say different things about Go.

Cdent Not really, both of us acknowledge that Go is supposed to be for EV owners. I disagree that gaming the Saving Sessions by increasing load at peak times is morally equivalent to non-EV owners using Go. Let me stress, just in case, that I actually don't really want to be dissing anyone on this platform. I have learned so much from everyone and my purchase and use of the GE system I have has gone much more smoothly and less stressful because of them.

Right everybody, I openly admit my cigarette packet maths were off…

I used 4.96kwh = £1.58

Original on paper calculation were:
4.96kwh used in the hours before➗ 6 = 0.826 average.
0.826 x £2.25 = £1.86 saving payment

Total calculated saving from octopus was £1.25 so it does appear the maths are slightly off.

On a positive note.. I paid 6.6p per kWh which was amazing when agile minimum was 20p for the day.
I could have exported some at 47p on agile export.
The other positive.. we never used any energy all that evening so we were not part of the national grids critical warning.

Some people will not be happy with what I have done but stocking up on low co2 energy for later use does stabilise the grid.

Cdent

what about those who are on an EV tariff (Go) without an EV to charge their batteries up? They are literally savings pennies per kWh, is that not a way of "gaming" the system to save a few pounds? And although solar & storage is a great way to save the planet, it's also a great way to save/earn money... once it's paid off of course 😀

Its not pennies I am saving 39.4-7.5=31.9pkw (that's 80%)

Zakalwe

They shouldn't be on Go if they don't have an EV, so yes, they are gaming the system.

so in your opinion then should only people who can afford to own an EV Car should be able to access Cheap Rate Off Peak Energy?

By that token you are effectively limiting the benefit to those consumers who are better off than the majority of the population. And could be argued are less likely to need a cheap rate to charge their cars at any time.

Octopus and other suppliers do not currently offer, or allow you to switch to, any other Off Peak Tariffs as a Non EV Owning Consumer.

I have worked all my life and have never been able to afford to purchase a car over around £10kish I certainly cannot afford to buy a used or new electric car at the moment and an electric car on PCP is just kidding yourself that your saving money.....

It's also worth mentioning that the tide is already turning on the Electric revolution. EV's are now subject to Road Taxation and in the next 10-20 years when everyone plugs their electric cars in overnight the "off peak" situation will no doubt have also changed to reflect this.

dragon2905 Octopus and other suppliers do not currently offer, or allow you to switch to, any other Off Peak Tariffs as a Non EV Owning Consumer

I think most energy suppliers offer Economy 7 or similar. There are plenty of people on this forum who have stated E7 as their tariff. I agree that accessing an off-peak tariff to load shift using house batteries is a win-win, but I also agree that not being truthful about whether or how you meet the terms and conditions of your supply contract is something that can leave you open to problems in the future.

dragon2905

That's a fair old (incorrect) conclusion that you've leaped to.
Regarding Go, AFAIK, its on the T&C's of the contract. My opinion means nothing...after all, it's Octopus Energy's sandpit and their rules.

dragon2905 so you're saving 31.9 pennies per kWh, exactly what I said.

The key point of the saving sessions is to balance the load better at certain times in the winter. Having GE battery storage means you can play your part and its not so complicated to achieve. All you need to do is to make sure you have enough charge in your batteries to supply you during the sessions. Using Timed Charge to store enough energy for the saving period is very straightforward a few hours earlier. Then you avoid using big power hungry appliances (and switch of the ASHP if you have one during the session) and let the battery supply everything else with no grid import needed. Its not cheating or gaming the system it is spreading the load which is exactly what the DNO is asking people to do. Timed discharge doesn't seem to work anyway so I never use it. Don't forget to change the settings back afterwards. After all, if you installed the batteries in the first place you were effectively trying to do your own load shifting, just on a smaller scale.

Anyone got the latest email from Octopus on Saving sessions this year. They are either not going to happen or going from £2.25 to 22p

🙁🙁🙁🙁❗️

Daveb01 There are no more "saving sessions". That's over in terms of what's been done in previous years.

"The DFS will be an in-merit margin service in line with the normal electricity market, meaning that it will no longer be an enhanced action."

That's from the NESO site.

Did you really have to necro a thread?

Vestas

The email from Octopus is asking people to contact the DNO and participate in a pole to see if they will change their mind.

Hhhmmm what does necro mean please? Am I in trouble 🥴

Once more applying the paddles to the lifeless body…..
Got this from Giv. Does it mean there will be some sort of saving sessions or is this different?

Join GivBack and earn cash from your battery this winter.

Get rewarded for supporting the grid when it's under strain and turn your stored energy into extra income.

Via a smart, secure algorithm, we'll handle your GivEnergy battery for you during each energy export event:
Export excess energy from your battery when the grid is strained
Get paid per kWh that you support the grid
Make money, help stabilise the grid, and reduce fossil fuel use
Earnings from GivBack are in addition to your regular export tariff
As long as you live in GB, with a working smart meter at an address where you have a GivEnergy battery at home, you’re eligible for the earnings.

Simply register and connect your battery to participate.

SimonClarke There was an occassion earlier this year when Axle (the people behind GivBack) was able to use batteries at very short notice to cover a breakage in one of the interconnectors, or something. That's not something that can be done through savings sessions.
https://community.givenergy.cloud/d/5078-givback-event/12

There was an email from Octopus a few weeks back inviting us to write to ofgem to "save" savings sessions. I think ofgem were consulting on cutting the offer down to something like 22p/kWh for savings sessions - low enough that a lot of people probably wouldn't bother.

Just wondered as I hadn’t heard anything from Octopus. Pretty sure I wouldn’t get any benefit anyway as the heat pump uses up everything! Unless I turn it off I suppose…

FWIW Octopus do not appear to be currently registered for DFS under the new scheme - only one relatively small energy supplier is. Pretty much everyone else is via Axle Energy.
That may change but I think that the price means that only automated solutions are likely to be attractive - people are probably not going to make massive changes to their day manually for less than they pay for a unit of energy anyway.
https://www.neso.energy/industry-information/balancing-services/demand-flexibility-service/registered-providers-list

There was a DFS auction just this morning. Asked for 500MW from 16:00 - 19:00, providers bid 2MW (not a typo) and then NESO rejected that bid so they achieved a big fat 0.

Isn't that £1.20/kWh? I thought that the new DFS was paying more in the order of £0.22/kWh per the Octopus email? I don't know that that is fixed but to bid almost a factor of five more seems optimistic.

Talked that up! Just got an email from Octopus saying they are starting at 75-90% reduced rate. Will have to think about it

I got the same email and have signed up for the Octopus Saving Sessions on the basis that this is not committing me to anything and if future sessions are worthwhile then I’ll act to support, but if not, then I won’t and nothing lost.

It does say in the Octopus email that they expect sessions to be around 10-25% of the previous value, but they may be rather more on occasion, and to me its what that looks like will be the crucial factor. Last time it made sense to export to the grid even if we had to import soon afterwards at a high Agile rate, the DFS saving amount made it worthwhile.

I did read the terms and conditions and this one caught my eye:

12. We will calculate your Baseline using the BSC P376 ‘Utilising a Baseline Methodology to set Physical Notifications’ without an in-day adjustment. The Baseline is the average consumption for the same period(s) of up to 60 days of your recent smart meter history, excluding days where a Saving Session has taken place.

Seems a bit and non-specific and maybe that’s because the ESO scheme is only just being launched. If the average consumption really is taken over 60 days then it’ll make it less attractive. It does say “up to” so maybe thats just covering themselves and the baseline for actual sessions will averaged be over a shorter period

geoffreycoan Seems a bit and non-specific and maybe that’s because the ESO scheme is only just being launched. If the average consumption really is taken over 60 days

I think last year had something similar. It only needs to go back 60 days if there have been lots of savings sessions or if smartmeter data is missing. Wasn't it something like the most recent 20 non-savings days that have data available.

As before, the problem is that it disincentives me from trying to avoid using peak-rate power. At the moment, I hold some battery back until 4:30pm, though I have no financial incentive to do so. But now I have an incentive to not do so, and just let the battery run out earlier if there's been no sun.

I wonder why they make it so difficult.

Trying to workout what you normally use.
Trying to workout what you have exported
Trying to bid for a price
Etc etc.

If I was in the room I would just say what is logic to me.
The default price is say 22p per kWh

If you use electric during the session you will be charged X (e.g 15p)
If you export you get 22p instead of the default 15p

Oh dear, I must have upset Octo as I did not get the email to sign up.

Logged in to see if it was in my account errr not there either.

I did see this new thing I have not seen before.

Daveb01 Oh dear, I must have upset Octo as I did not get the email to sign up.

were you with Octopus DFS sessions last year? The email seemed to be targeted at prior customers and maybe they’ll then be sending one for new customers?

The energy insights is interesting. I keep being told I’m in the top 10% of green customers but with my ASHP-fuelled consumption it doesn’t feel like it. Maybe it’s because Predbat ensures I don’t import in the peak i.e. dirty energy periods?

geoffreycoan

Hi yah, up I was in it last year, so thought the same it was automatic. Just found this:-

I have found the same graph as you, I think it is another “thank you for your help with Predbat” and another 🥂🍺

Also found this and I have been getting some things during 2024. I will be a millionaire in about errr 3025

Daveb01 Strange

Here’s the explanatory video on what they know so far about DFS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0lYG96Gs1o

and here is the link you need to signup for this year. Replace XXXX with your account number A-NNNNN

https://octopus.typeform.com/to/Gk0Viqrl?typeform-source=www.google.com#account_number=A-XXXXX&q1=YES

geoffreycoan
Looks like you're down in the pecking order compared with Daveb01 and me:

Just checked my saving sessions last winter. I was in for 14 sessions and saved 26.66 kWh
I think that's £62.91. So if reward is 10%, that reduces to a total of £6.29, averaging 45p per session.
I have an ASHP and I used to switch it off during each saving session.

I have signed up to find out what going to happen but doesn't bode well.
Doubtful whether it will be worth my time, hassle and lower house temperatures to sign up for any saving session.

Rob

I have said im interested but if it works out like the news about it has suggested I won't be taking part.

I’m in the top 0%! Does that mean I’m the only one?

ChrisRowe

My math teacher would be saying zero % of nothing is nothing 😀👍🎄. But well done for being the only one.
Have a look at the chart like ours with the small graph to see if it measuring anything, there should be something there unless you have run wires from the lamppost near you and it’s all free 🥂😎