Just wondering if anyone has any new news about the EMS box? My installer will not install a second AC3 for me until this new management box arrives. Last I was told was December then December/January bit given wider problems and now the All In One is listed I feel a delay coming.... But live in hope!
I will contact GivEnergy and ask too but often you lot have insider knowledge. Any updates news on it would be beneficial.
THALL
I'm also keen to learn about the EMS box so I can ensure my existing "plant" setup is optimised. It was meant to be sometime at the end of last year or beginning of this, but it seems Giv have other issues they are working on.
Just spoke to someone at giv on the phone this morning and they're aiming for availability 'Q1' this year so who knows!
JJB I forgot to update my post. I asked GE this morning and got a reply instantly saying the EMS is targetted for release Q2. So April to June. I was told December/January previously. Does mean the earliest I can get a second AC3 is now the end of July....... Until my install see's it and has a price he's strongly suggesting I wait on the install.
keyword-literal-shingle-oriole that is different to what I was told just a couple of hours ago on the webchat!
Really frustrating. GivEnergy communications = diabolocal!
THALL it's odd they won't install another AC3 until its sorted. I have 2 and other than 2 oddities (which I knew about going in) they work as expected.
The first one is the reporting/figures are abit screwy, the app only connects to one of them in local mode (don't know if its the same one each time) and the portal gives some funky usage stats, I think so far today it says I've used 1.13MW (I haven't!)
The second is they dont always (more often than not) discharge symmetrically, it's not unusual for 1 battery to be at 5% and idle and the other to be at 30%+ by the evening but other than a few peaks (such as the oven heating up) that doesn't really matter for us and even with that we still draw very little from the grid. Today has been relatively heavy and 1 is on 60% and the other is around 50%
These are the two things I'm hoping the EMS is going to resolve
@keyword-literal-shingle-oriole the big issue they told me about is they currently have a lot of plant systems where one battery is draining into the other, and then back again etc. He wouldn't go into details of other issues with GE kit. He would install it if I pushed but he's strongly suggesting I wait.
THALL I have heard that now you mention it. In all fairness I'm pretty sure Giv themselves warned me about that but it's not an issue I've noticed, that being said I suspect you'd have to be looking at the portal/app while it was actually happening.
I'm running 2xAC3 with a 9.5 battery on each and if it has happened then it's not happened either enough or severely enough to have a noticeable impact, although obviously you'll get double inverter losses!
keyword-literal-shingle-oriole I would end up with dual AC3's with a 9.5 on one and a 8.2 on the other. That may have other issues, not sure. I would like it done to capture more of my generation and to be able to run mutilple large appliances. But I already have the SOC issue in the other thread so I am concerned about adding issues.
I’ll be keeping an eye on this as well as mine sometimes get out of sync
Hey,
Now we've got @TheDragon (GivEnergy) onboard at Givenergy - wondering if we might be able to get an update on this?
Last I saw it was a 'Q2' thing - is this still on track, as keen to order another Gen2 to arrive with it if so!
Thanks!
alphabeta77 Last update I got is still targeted for Q2 release. Not sure I will get another update until the end of June.
I dont have any information on EMS. Sorry. Other than its in development
For what it's worth it does at least exist (in the UK) as I've physically seen it. Can't help with when it's out, testing or how it works - is not my place.
TheDragon (GivEnergy) In development? I was told all the testing was done and was targeting for Q2 release. In development sounds like a few steps before that, ie still in testing!
THALL I was told all the testing was done and was targeting for Q2 release.
Did they tell you what year??? Wasn't the water diverter targeted for end Q2 release last year? Ditto the car charger?
At this stage GivEnergy are doing very very little to make their promises believable or trustworthy.
I’ll admit I’m a little disappointed here. Initially told its in beta testing (which I applied for with no response), targeting late Q1, then Q2 release. Now “it’s in development”. Whilst I would imagine that the current firmware issues are taking the vast majority of the GE development teams time, it would be good to get a definitive answer on this..
Zakalwe They did not say a year, no. I will be mighty annoyed if it is not this year. The price of the inverters keeps going up and up, I was meant to have one added last October but due to the issues with plant setups I did not bother as my installers advice.
Ta - useful at least to know you don't know!
Appreciate if you could keep us posted if you hear anything, know they've been swamped by the whole battery debacle, but hopefully light at end of tunnel!!
The light at the end of the tunnel is the 08:55 coming towards you ...
It was in development and rolled out for beta on some systems but held back due to some issues. We've had a recent hire (product manager) who's first task is the EMS to get it out the door. PCBs done, portal done (from what I've seen), needs some firmware modifications to get things working properly which he's heading up then good to go.
Probably worth mentioning, only ac coupled to begin with. And no dates yet.
Let me know if you want hybrids testing, since swapping to gen2 inverters from Gen1 cross charging has appeared which wasn't present in the Gen1's.
Adam-Reynolds up for some AC3 testing if required as I have dual AC3
Thanks both. There is a very long list of testers who've already put themselves forwards and promises made previously. But I am sure if we want to open this up further. Well put something out (likely on these forums)
Adam-Reynolds While I am very thankful for the update I am extremely disappointed that this new information is very different to what you told me via email. In previous emails you have said all testing is done (I offered to test) you were told expected release will be Dec/Jan (2022/2023). Later when I asked in a web chat someone replied saying targeted for Q2 release.
Are these firmware issues? Beta firmware related? I would really appreciate details of what has changed if possible. I am eager to get this device in, my installer is waiting for this device for various customers he has. It is the last piece of my renewal project, so once in hopefully I will have no issues and I will shut up and disappear :-)
I am not angry, just frustrated/disappointed. Especially (as far as I can remember) the AC3 was listed/sold as being able to link multiple units together. I actually think the EMS should be offered as free to current givenergy customers.
THALL to my knowledge up until recently I had thought that was the case! Testing the hardware might be done at this stage and it's ironing out the last bits. I don't know too much but thought I'd chime in with what I do know.
I don't have that information sorry to say. I don't have any day to day dealings with new product releases outside of occasional updates, but even so regardless, I wouldn't be able to provide specifics on the issues.
Good news is it's back in hand, a new hire and focus is back on it. We should have some more news on this in the coming months.
THALL I would agree with what you’ve said on the most part. When I decided to go for multiple inverters I knew about the issues but the latest information I had at the time from my installer/GE was that the EMS was due imminently/early 2023 so I figured I would only have a few months to have to baby the system. Now there is still no date in site and no real information.. Adam has given what he has, which whilst it’s more than I’ve heard on the subject to date is still not much really to go on..,
Adam-Reynolds Thank you for posting.
Smk82 When my system went in July 2021 there were no issues, i don't think this forum even existed. I found out about dual inverter issues when I placed my order for more PV May/June 2022. My installer strongly advised me to wait for the EMS due to various issues he was aware of. I could push and have one installed, but I have heard from some that they have to restart their inverters daily to avoid cross charging. I am trying to get to the point of leaving the system alone. Ideally I would like the second AC3 installed, everything setup and working as expected and not have anymore issues with it until the equipment dies from old age.
THALL tbf, I don’t have to restart mine that often? A couple of times over a week? It’s also the loss of sync between batteries although that has got a little better since being switched to master/slave. Main irritation is the data corruption meaning a lot of the info is inaccurate or just widely wrong. The system does work, and I’m putting up with the quirks but I will be very happy when the ems is installed and these issues are a thing of the past
Smk82 Everyones experience is a bit different. Like some people on production firmwares are not seeing the SOC issue at all. Which is either great for them or it just means the issue is yet to happen. As for data I have been missing data on the beta firmware. Solar to battery data reports as 0. Not really a problem normally, I only noticed because i wanted the data to work out if a switch to flux would cost me or save me pounds. At this point I am just hoping the EMS is not 18 months away and whatever these new issues are can be easily fixed with firmware. Plus I still think it should be free as it fixes a feature that was originally offered. Got to pay for the installers time anyway.
THALL oh mines hilarious. Apparently I’ve generated 2000kw and consumed 6000 today😂. Strangely the daily battery charge figure on the portal total is correct, but the app only shows 50% (I.e one pack).. go figure.
Agreed, should be free and hopefully in <3 months! My installer did say that the EMS would be included for me once available.. but will have to see.
On 21st March 23, I enquired to GivEnergy support on any timing for the availability of the EMS. Their response was (verbatim quote) “Unfortunately, we do not have a release date for this product just yet, however, It is in production currently”. If this is factual, then even taking account GivEnergy UK ordering, dispatching, shipping time, customs, distribution, etc it may be not too long away?
KWcomm considering that is the first time that we have heard the word production that may indicate a hopeful sign. Although as the comments by @Adam-Reynolds above only a couple of weeks ago didn’t give any indication of this. It maybe from what was said that outstanding issues are firmware related and the hardware design is complete, so they are pre-preparing ahead of launch?
I also read 'in production' to mean that some pre-production units have been assembled, as part of the beta testing. So I'm not going to get too excited by a comment from one of the Customer Service team.
ToothyChris indeed. There has been too much conflicting information from various sources at GE to get particularly excited yet…
Looking at the bigger picture of firmware issues, I expect the firmware on the EMS needs adjusting for all the new firmwares on the inverters. That will need testing in full before they release. Best and most hopeful guess is Q4 this year or early 2024. I check the givenergy site once a month.
THALL I really hope we don’t have to wait another year
Smk82 I just think considering what it does it will need new firmwares and testing to work with the new inverter firmwares. So I would say once the new inverters go public release then add on 4 to 6 months. I need this device too, been chasing it over 7 months now, I have an empty space on my wall ready for it, and installer waiting to install it.
Someone, somewhere should know more about this now, I would have thought. What data is being received from all these beta testers, @Adam-Reynolds?
JJB The last I heard is bugs were found in the firmware. Not sure if this is linked to the role out of new firmwares for inverters and bms, I guess the EMS might need an update to work with these. I know it is a priority and there is someone dedicated to the project. No confirm ETA though. Might be something announced this weekend at Fully Charged maybe?
THALL I’m not holding my breath.. they will want to announce big headline stuff like the AIO and eV charger etc.. EMS whilst very useful and good for those of us with multiple inverters is unfortunately hardly a headline grabber
Smk82 Due to the delays with the EMS I have actually aborted my plans to add a second AC3. With the AIO due anytime I will run my current kit until it dies now. But for those of us with dual inverters already it is badly needed.
the 1st unit went out for testing (Dual AC3) over the weekend. No results from it yet.
Just some info to let everyone know its not forgotten
TheDragon (GivEnergy) the thought occurs.. based on what we’ve been told about the EMS it acts to sync multiple inverters together and gets them to charge//discharge in concert, allows for a proper differentiation of inverter data so generation figures etc make sense..
My thought was if it allows for inverters to act in sync, does this mean multiple inverters could be linked to house backup (thus increasing the available power supplied) as their performance is in sync?
Smk82 their performance will be in sync, their frequency during a power cut won't be.
Each inverter could be wired to a different consumer unit with different circuits in.
You can't wire two inverters to the same circuits.
So you could have some level of backup for power cuts, but the output from each inverter would be limited to 2.5kW / 3.6kW etc depending on the inverter and the battery and you couldn't run power hungry items like ovens, ASHP etc.
There is a gateway device that acts as a whole home backup but that is only available for the new all in one (AIO) product.
TX200 thanks.. sigh, what I was afraid of..
TheDragon (GivEnergy) great stuff! Thanks for the update, much appreciated.
More than happy to be a guinea pig if that's helpful - will dual hybrids be looked at in due course....
alphabeta77 May I ask - do you already have dual hybrid inverters? I have been sold 2 x Gen 2 5k inverters, only to find that it's not a supported config. I'm getting a lot of problems (reporting, batteries flip-flop charging each other, isolator tripping, simultaneous large-scale import/export etc). My post here explains
Is your system working OK? Have GivEnergy had to make any changes to your system to get it working? Likewise has your installer done anything to mitigate the problems I'm seeing? I have 40 panels and 4 x 8.2 batteries, if that makes any difference...
Thank you!
Hi there,
No I've ordered a second, but asked my installer to hold fire until GE release the EMS which was 'almost ready' in Dec last year.
Think last I heard was Q2 was still the goal, but not seen huge amounts of communication
I have a Dual AC3 with four 9.5kW batteries, with 18, 400w SunPower Maxeon 3 panels with two 3kW solaredge inverts, MyEnergi, Zappi, Eddi with full automatic grid backup and In general it seems to work OK.
I have seen a red status light on one of the batteries sometime but a restart of the battery solve the issue. I running on the Inverter firmware D0.535-A0.535 and battery firmware 3009. I still waiting for my Export Mpan from my DNO before I can update the firmware on the batteries. My system was installed in March this year.
I was informed by the installers that I may have problems and I would need a EMS installed once it was released. I was hoping it would be soon.
Simon-D how does your auto back up work then? I have a Manual system but I was informed I could only have it via one AC3?
That is correct It only one AC3 at present with two batteries, I was informed by the installer that I need EMS to get both AC3 on the system. I hope this is correct?
I would have gone with new All in One AC Coupled | 13.5kWh if it had been released.
Someone in the thread above said that having both AC3 wouldn’t work as whilst they both charge/discharge together with the EMS, their frequency (which is set by the grid (I think)) won’t be. I’m going to contact GE to confirm that directly.
I know what you mean about the AIO. Irritating that. But that’s life, always something better round the corner.
My main irritation though is the gateway as I was told it was backwards compatible so I was thinking great I can have whole house backup and my panels still work (as separate pV inverters shut down in an outage). Unfortunately not to be.
Yes it would be good to confirm if dual AC3 will work with EMS when released.
My installer tested the EPS and I can run both solar panels with one AC3 with the the two batteries when off the grid with the automatic EPS installed by them. Which pV inverters are you using in your system
Simon-D wtf?!?! You can run Solar with AC3??? I was told and everything I’ve read has said that the pV shuts down for AC coupled?? Only works for hybrid or a gateway type setup like Tesla? How????
I’m using two Solis 3kw btw
Sounds interesting. Not 100% sure how it works.
Guess mains > inverter > EPS (grid pass through) > Consumer unit with solar connection (when mains is on).
But can you export from the EPS connection back out to the grid when the solar is generating more than the items on the EPS consumer unit needs?
Like wise when the grid fails, I assume it'll be battery > inverter> EPS > essential CU > solar panel inverter ( to start it up)
But again, what happens if generating more than the house can consume. Does it then charge the battery, then what??
The new GE AIO can keep AC connected solar up in a similar way during a power cut. Again, not sure how it throttles the solar inverter when it needs to (suggestions of frequency modulation being one possibility, or raising the voltage coming out the inverter to shut down the solar inverter maybe).
Yes I can run Solar with AC3 with my Solaredge system. You are correct the information on the GivEnergy states that AC3 will work on batteries only
https://kb.givenergy.cloud/article.php?id=12&oid=1
When I had Enphase IQ7 Microinverter installed on the SunPower Maxeon 3 panels I could not run solar with the AC3 when the EPS was in use.
I had problems with the Enphase system with my SunPower Maxeon 3 panels pushing to much voltage to the Microinverter and I decided to switched to the Solaredge power optimizers/ inverters system with my installers home built EPS gateway I found that I could run both together.
I do not understand how it works, but when the EPS is in use I am fully isolated from the grid, I can still charge the two batteries due to limitation how the AC3 system I only have 3kW, but I can use all the power from the solar panels from my two 3kW Solaredge inverter across the house. I believe that the inverters will scale back the power if not required
After doing a bit of digging, could it be this https://www.solaredge.com/en/products/residential/storage-and-backup/solaredge-home-backup-interface along with their home
Hub inverter? Actually mentions AC backup power on the data sheet for the inverter.
It does state in conjunction with solar edge batteries but obviously it works with other brands?
Look familiar ?
Sorry no, I did see that unit on the Solaredge site but my gateway switch is home built by them.
Simon-D I’m a little surprised as I thought that the gateways had to be signed off and demonstrated to a DNO rep when installed (I.e tightly regulated because of the risk of power flow back to the grid), so that’s why there weren’t many manufacturers offering that kind of functionality.
To find an installer who’s basically done a home built version is intriguing. Who did your install?
Yes that why it had it own earth rod installed, the installer had to test it before use to confirm that it fully isolated the grid with no risk of power flow back. I believe the gateway is made for them, the upgrade cost from a manual to automatic was £700 lot of money.
I believe that GivEnergy gateway will be cheaper when released.
I do not know if the forum allows the installers to be name if it does I happy to do so.
Simon-D the Giv gateway only works with the AIO unfortunately
That good to know
TheDragon (GivEnergy) Hi! Do you have any results from the initial testing yet? I'm waiting on an install of a second AC3 and batteries - my installer won't install the second AC3 until this EMS unit is available, so I'm very keen to learn when they'll be available. Thanks!
Likewise, know Q2 was the last release date we heard, but getting very close to Q3 now without any update on anything??
I had this response on fbook from mick smith who is running the EMS product rollout apparently: “Starting to onboard the beta pilot users, portal changes nearly all complete, some small changes needed but not critical, and will be looking to getting them to the first group of beta testers starting next week. got some documentation and user information to complete, beta community pages ready invites waiting to go out so just about there”
So it looks like there is at least forward momentum, but considering how long the eV charger has been beta testing, I’m not holding out much hope to see it this side of Christmas 🤦♂️. More than happy to be wrong
One version is cloud based and another version is hardware based.
Great to hear and good to know it's progressing! Think Givenergy are continuing to push forward, this will be a big one for them (allows them to properly support anything and be mid sized houses with larger draws and more importantly the large capacities that things like EVs demand!)
Be great to be part of the beta testing if they're accepting users!
@TheDragon (GivEnergy) Paul, is this something you can provide a contact for?
Ditto for me please @TheDragon (GivEnergy) but from the message, it looks like mick has sufficient? (For the moment anyway)
I am also waiting to see what comes our of the bag with it but tbh with such a large delays I am more and more thinking about waiting till next year and just grabbing bidirectional EV charger (of which 3 were announced for 2024) which will allow me to not only use my car as the main home battery storage but also draw up to 12kW from it... at least those are numbers I read about, what will come out of it... we'll have to wait and see.
Regardless, those new technologies will leave solutions such as this one in the dust as legacy technology not really worth investing in.
We'll see I guess, might be that it will be usefull anyway.
I'm taking this is looking like a 2024 thing now?! Seem to have gone radio silent from the 'almost ready' this time last year!
alphabeta77 there was an update on it at the recent storage and solar show. Mick has stated on fbook that they have several beta test plants hooked up including a triple. No indication of when available yet though.
It does physically exist although this isn't the finished product (shown last week) so when exactly its going out the door is still unknown.
Eyeballing it you've got (in this preproduction version)
4G, Bluetooth, Ethernet & WiFi
USB
Multiple RS485 & Canbus connections to inverters
A buzzer and an LED!
There has been the presentation by mick smith from the show uploaded to the GE blog on their website. There is a short Q&A at the end, which is really only one question-when is it it coming… answer- apparently Jan-feb 2024 to allow for case design/final FW/CE approval.
As it’s been “coming” for a while, I’ll take the dates with pinch of salt, but based on the data from the test beta units, I’m happy to say I want one!
Looks to be quite a bit of kit in the box so it’s not going to be sub-£100 (just picking a random “well if it costs that much I’ll get one” figure).
Personally I’m not sure I’ll want to get one. TBH my pair of gen 1 hybrids work fine enough together. The only issue I’ve had with cross charging has been overnight when a target soc is set and one battery os below that soc and the other above. The upper one then discharges into the lower but this has been fixed by Trefor adding a “don’t discharge when charging” switch in predbat which sets the discharge rate to zero during a charging period.
This works fine for me now.
I also have doubts as to whether the EMS is going to interfere with Inverter control activities being managed from home assistant; having two things trying to control the inverter doesn’t sound like it’ll work well.
Pity as if the EMS had been around when I had my system installed I’d have had one then. But now as a retro install I don’t think I will
geoffreycoan you wouldn’t be able to use this version anyway. He says v2 (next year) would do hybrid plants and ac/hybrid as well. This version only does AC apparently
Smk82 yes I’d heard that givenergy were focussing on AC plant initially for the BMS
Perhaps rather foolishly, I upgraded my batteries to 3015 and my inverters to D0.535-A0-535. Previously the batteries were on 3005 from roughly when they were installed in 2021 and one of my AC3s was on 535 but the other was on 534. Everything seemed to go fairly well and the batteries calibrated fine, but now they appear to be charging and discharging into one another during my Octopus Go period. Previously, they would reach peak capacity and bubble along doing not much at all until the discharge time began at 04.30, but now the energy chart shows a saw tooth pattern of 2.5kW charge and discharge, seemingly into one another once they are fully charged.
I did ask GE tech support if the firmware should be downgraded back to what they were at until the EMS arrives, and then decided to have a laugh and ask them when that was ready. The answer from Alina, in first line support, was "I would say the ETA for releasing the EMS will be in the Q1 of 2024". Now, while I realise we've all heard this before, many times, does anyone have any parameters about how this would be determined? I'm guessing that GE are mucking about with "new stuff", as usual, rather than trying to fix their "old stuff". My goodness, it's only two years old and never worked as it should, but perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel that isn't yet another train coming in the opposite direction!
I get that the EMS is probably not going to make them much money, but how hard can it be to balance a few batteries? I can forego the buzzer and the LED from the production model, if it helps speed things up, as I wouldn't notice either of them going off in the garage anyway!
I have been waiting many months with the same issues that you are having. During last summer I even had one of my inverters turned off and connected my two batteries in series to the remaining inverter. This wa reasonable during the summer when I was getting reasonable output from my panels but now, in the winter, I find I can't deliver sufficient output from the single inverter (3kW) to provide full demand from the home when we are cooking, dryering clothes etc. even though I have capacity in the batteries, nor can I fully charge my batteries during the low tariff night period, again due to the 3kW inverter restriction. Sorry state of affairs with no clear end to the issue in sight. I would certainly not recommend GivEnergy to anyone, not because of the hardware but because of the software. I fear that unless management get their act together and put some wait behind getting these issues fixed, they are likely to go to the wall.
Regards
Alan
Just a quick bump back to the top. I am eagerly awaiting the ems which was supposed to be here by now.
Is there any news?
I reached out to their support team back in January and I was told the EMS would be released around Q3 of this year, so it's still a way off unfortunately.
I've recently persuaded my installer to move ahead with a dual inverter setup on a single phase (2 x Gen-3 hybrids). The install was completed a few weeks ago. As the GivEnergy EMS isn't available yet, I'm using Predbat (with GivTCP) in Home Assistant to balance the inverters - it helps detect cross-charging and throttles the inverters to mitigate it as much as possible. It does this by running a routine once every 30 seconds and re-adjusts the discharge limits.
So far it's been working really well. Predbat also has an option to keep the battery SOC in-sync across inverters, to help ensure both inverters are able to discharge concurrently throughout the day (allowing them to discharge at a combined rate of just over 6kW).
danielgallo I also contacted GE Support about the EMS availability in January, and was told Q2 of this year!
I’m sure they just make it up as they go along!
ChrisRowe I have a triple AC3 system with 4x 9.5kWh batteries and have the EMS prototype installed, works a treat. For hybrid systems it's a lot more complicated and therefore still a way off, there aren't any out in the wild yet
That good to know that your triple AC3 system with 4x 9.5kWh batteries with the EMS prototype installed and it is working a treat.
I have dual AC3 system with 4x 9.5kWh batteries with EPS installed, been very lucky that I had not too many problems.
I wanted a triple AC3 to allow me to charge up quicker and a higher discharge rate. But I was informed by the installer that I could not have a triple AC3 system at the time last year because of DNO reasons.
Did you have any problems in getting DNO approval.
Do you a EPS on your triple AC3 system.
I only found out when my system installed that I was limited to only one AC unit with two batteries for the use with my automatic EPS. I can only hope that the EMS may allow extra AC units installed with the EPS house backup.
When I spoke to GE support team in January and I was told the EMS would be released later in this year as well.
I may ask for a extra AC to be installed at the same time, when I get the EMS.
Good to know. I’ve got dual Gen3 hybrid 5.0’s with 4x 9.5kW batteries. I’m on the balancer software beta trial, which works pretty well to prevent cross charging. Although I’m not convinced I’m seeing a full 9.5kW coming out of all the batteries. But that may be unrelated. Are you getting the full round trip out of yours? And how’s it going with 2 batteries on one inverter and one on each of the others?
Hasn’t the EMS been shelved and is to be replaced with the upcoming CEMS - I thought the plan was to create one device that works with all the different GE kit for plant systems?
Can anyone confirm if that is still the plan?
I did wonder if they could just halve the demand value from the house load CT clamp and tell each battery to just supply half the demand each to the house but maybe it’s not that simple. (Or divide by 3 or 4 depending on how many batteries you have). May be too simplistic. I’m sure they must have thought of that idea.
A reasonably good CEMS NOW would be good, instead of a perfect one in 9 months time. (As long as it can be updated!).
Simon-D I only found out when my system installed that I was limited to only one AC unit with two batteries for the use with my automatic EPS. I can only hope that the EMS may allow extra AC units installed with the EPS house backup.
I don’t think you will ever be able to have multiple inverters providing an EPS into the house because when the inverter is in EPS mode it is providing the AC current ‘sine wave’ and any other inverter will not be providing their AC current with a precisely aligned wave, so they would clash.
The way round it though is to have your house fusebox divided into different fuse boards and feed each board from a different inverter. That way there’s no clash across inverters with unsynchronised AC current.
e.g. AC number 1 feeds fusebox number 1 with house ring main on
AC 2 feeds fusebox number 2 with house lighting sockets
AC 3 feeds fusebox number 3 with oven and kitchen sockets
Yes I think that you are correct I maybe stuck with one just AC, I was hoping that EMS would resolve the issue. The only way It could happen if I replace the AC with all in one unit and wait for a version 2 of the EMS or CEMS
The fuse box idea could work but would need major work to the house fuse box
Simon-D only other way around it would be if GE ever release a higher power inverter than the AC3..they were planning an AC5 but that never materialised. Would be great if they made an AC6 for low voltage so we could have the equivalent on an AIO but I know that would never materialise as that would in direct competition to an AIO
That would be great if it does happen.
Does anyone have a update on the EMS for the AC3 plant systems
GE have now released on YouTube that you can have up to 3 AIO system link together but still in Beta stage?
Simon-D I don't believe this is an EMS. Maybe a variant of it, but its the existing AIO gateway controlling multiple AIO batteries, something that it was always supposed to be able to do and was a "coming soon" feature at the AIO product launch
Yes, maybe it is and you are right it was promised feature when the AIO was released.
We can only hope that GE is still working on the EMS and will release it soon.
Simon-D I e.mailed GE in January asking about the EMS and was told Q2 this year. As we are now into Q3 I asked again this week. I was told that the product is ready, just awaiting CE approval.
Are they giving any quotes yet? Anyone know?
I see that a number of suppliers are listing the ems with a delivery date late November.
Is this date likely to be met?
Is there any documentation available to review?
GarethBarnes which suppliers are you seeing that with?
There are a number of them if you search google, but midsummerwholesale are definitely listing them
Not the cheapest box of tricks in the world is it? https://www.powerland.co.uk/products/givenergy-ems
I suspect your 'installer' will charge circa £1k to supply & fit. Also - is it V1 or V2 i.e. AC only or AC plus hybrid? Most likely only an option for new installs.
Apparently this is shipping now, or at least available. I've not been able to get my installer that excited about it and he said there were no "reputable" wholesalers who had it in stock. By that I suspect he probably means none where he feels as though he's getting enough margin to bother setting up and account with. Midsummer keep on saying they will have some "tomorrow" but that, as we all know, never comes! Has anyone got their hands on one?
I managed to get the attached "user manual" from GE this week, which also appears to be an install manual as well. But it does look as though it was written for an older version and the pictures make it look as though it's held together with chewing-gum and sticky tape!
Has anyone with an AC-Coupled Plant setup got one fitted yet?
JJB This very much looks like its either written by someone in China for whom English wasn’t their first language, or its a product of Google Translate.
“User Manuel”
“AC Couple plant”
In the introduction it explains how it works, managing multiple inverters to meet house load when the SoC’s are aligned and when they are not, all good. Later on describes the portal control options - 3 sets of charge and discharge slots which is a nice improvement.
Under charging and discharging there doesn’t appear to be any way to set the charge or discharge rate, only full power is mentioned.
Wonder what they will sell for and how much installation will be.
And of course what about EMS for hybrid setups, or even mixed setups such as hybrid and AIO
All good for up to tripple AC plants then but what about the hybids? Thats what I’m waiting for.
Also what about balancing battery pairs, triples or more on each inverter? Presumably there will still be the problem where if one battery mis-behaves then it affects the other battery (batteries) of that set (pair, triplets, etc) as well as limiting the total capacity of that inverter pair (even the working one). And if one bad battery on an inverter pair still affects both batteries total usable capacity on that inverter pair, then presumably the EMS will still continue to balance both inverter pairs batteries further limiting the other two batteries that were working ok, and balancing them with the pair with the one battery that’s playing up. Hence downgrading all 4 batteries usable capacity to the weakest and hence downgrading the whole system capacity.
I guess it’s progress but I’m still a little concerned about the latter issue, which requires all batteries to be working correctly and be balanced for the whole system to work properly. On the face of things, it appears that a single battery issue would have the potential to screw up the whole system or at the very least to downgrade the total usable capacity to that dictated by the weakest performing battery.
But I assume GE have already thought about this scenario and tested for it? Right? 🤔
It’ll be interesting to see the feedback of how people get on with the AC coupled version of the new EMS.
I’ve got everything crossed.
FYI GivEnergy is now running a Limited time special offer to the end of February.
https://givenergy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/UK-EMS-Datasheet.pdf
[unknown] But from the small print you need to be buying a battery as well.
Rob
Rbor for now yes.
Wholesalers will have stock.
Once the offer runs out. I'm sure they will sell them separately.
If the offer isn't extended. I don't know what new offers there are yet.
TheDragon (GivEnergy)
I have one AC3.0 connected to two daisy-chained 8.2 kWh batteries – so all 'old tech'.
A 2nd AC3.0 inverter would allow one battery per inverter which would increase my energy throughput. EMS should control cross charging.
But I don't need another 'old tech' battery.
I am holding fire for the moment and will see what materialises after the offer runs out.
I did enquire through my installer a month ago but, as is often the case, they haven't got back to me.
Rob
Rbor You can have upto 5 batteries per inverter.
Most settle for 2 x 9.5s each as common sense max
Could I check something, would the EMS then support an AIO with a DC coupled battery on the hybrid inverter?
CW Not this EMS no.
We expect the next one, currently in development to support different systems
TheDragon (GivEnergy) OK - thanks for the response - one of those would could be useful for me - still trying to work it out - could do with some more storage (and power output) but don't really need an extra 13.5kWh
TheDragon (GivEnergy) I'm surprised it's worth the effort now you have much bigger inverters avail, rather than supporting multiples of LV kit.
How does the Polar stuff achieve parallel? Does that have some sort of discount / poundland EMS already in it?
hoggy still a market for existing customers
[unknown] I know I'm just pot stirring, but there must be a lot more existing demand than what I see here.
Between EMS beta, EMS v1 and this as yet unfinished EMSv2 that does hybrids, I can't square the maths on development cost vs demand/reward now that Realtime Write is a thing? If someone came along with a simple (& hands off) esp32 device doing balancing locally like many of the HA scripts, would that not be a worry to demolish your target market? Anyway, not knocking Givs efforts - they are obviously keen to see it through, maybe they make the margin on the battery rather than the rest of the kit.
I need the EMS for my hybrid inverters and I presume those with a hybrid looking to expand their system will also.
I was looking at EMS to control my system a dual AC 3kWh system with 4x 9.5kWh batteries with EPS on one of the AC inverters but that was before my heat pump was installed last year.
I now thinking that I will need a bigger AC inverter for the house as I am drawing from the grid in the winter months and I unable to recharge my batteries back to 100% within the cheap rate overnight once depleted to the 4% reserve level.
I decided to wait and see what is released this year before making a decision.
Simon-D As an alternative suggestion, here’s how I manage my batteries (a 9.5 and a 5.2 on two gen 1 hybrid inverters) with Cosy. I have the same problem of the overnight rate durations.
00:00-04:00 Eco mode, let the batteries meet house demand. ASHP is set back from 19 to 17 degrees so unless it is really cold I don’t drain the batteries significantly, usually no worse than half full
04:00-07:00 Charge the batteries at full rate, hot water on from 4-7am, heating back to 19 degrees from 5-7am. By 7am the batteries are full
07:00-13:00 Eco mode, batteries meet house demand, but I set battery reserve on the 9.5 to 27% to keep it about quarter full. If its a mild day the batteries will last through to 13:00, if its cold then the 5.2 empties and the 9.5 gets to the 27% reserve then I grid import at day rate although this is usually only about an hour or less. Heat pump at 17 degrees setback from 7:00 to 10:30 when it reverts to 19 degrees for the rest of the day. This conserves the batteries a bit by letting the house coast on the heating injected from 5-7am.
13:00-16:00 Full rate charge, the 5.2 can fill in this time period, the 9.5 as its still a quarter full will also fill. Set reserve back to 4%.
16:00-sometime after the evening peak Eco mode, batteries run me through the peak, and usually run out at about 19:15-20:30 depending on the weather. Run on grid import at the day rate
22:00-00:00 Charge batteries, this is enough charge to get me through the night. Heating setback at 23:30 to 17 degrees
This maximises the Cosy tariff for me, does mean a lot of use of the batteries, but that’s what they’re there for. Setting the battery reserve in the morning (could do the same overnight) preserves the batteries for when the charging periods are not long enough
geoffreycoan
Thanks for the alternative suggestion, I did think about the Cosy Octopus as a option as you have more charging slots.
We are still learning how to run the heat pump very new to us, currently we pre heat house at 20 degrees overnight from 11.30pm setback to 19 degrees after 5.30am and then to 18 degrees after 8am at 4pm the heating goes back to 19 degrees until 11.30pm. (If it very cold we run out of power by 10pm)
We have underfloor heating down stairs so nice and warm, upstairs only radiators (10mm Bore) for not so warm in these rooms but ok.
I am finding it hard to control/ balance the house temperature between the two heating systems, when we had gas heating system it was set up as two independent zones with individual room control downstairs. We had to keep the individual room control downstairs for UFH as when Octopus removed the zones we found that downstairs was too hot and upstairs was cold below 16 degrees.
I forgot to say I am on the Intelligent Octopus Go as we have a EV as well,
Simon-D I now thinking that I will need a bigger AC inverter for the house as I am drawing from the grid in the winter months
Yep, defo looks like you’d benefit from bigger inverter capacity from what you’re describing to get the full benefit out of all those batteries.
Was it designed like that, or did you add an extra battery on each inverter later on?
2x 9.5kW batteries on each AC3.0 inverter is going to take a fair while to charge. Is it 2.3kW or 2.7kW output on them?
For info I’ve got 2x 9.5’s on each of my Gen3 5.0 hybrids and they can charge from 4% to 100% in the 6 hour IOG off peak slot (just!).
A few other options are;
1) (Assuming you don’t have micro inverters)
Upgrade both inverters to 5kW hybrid ones.
Then assuming you can last the 18hours peak on 38kWh stored and a bit of solar you’d tick all the boxes and get your average import rate down to close to 7p/kW as well.
You’d also get a max house load of 7.2kW out of the batteries and a max forced export to grid rate of 8.0kW.
2) Transfer to Eon Next drive for a 7hr off peak period (which hopefully (almost?) solves the charging part of the equation but maybe not the required max house load part from your current inverters). But you then only have to make the 38kW and solar last 17 hours.
or Tomato where you get 6hrs at 5p and two 2 hour slots at 15p. Export rate is paltry on Tomato though.
You could also play with the set-back times a bit to make better (cheaper) use of the cheap overnight off peak to get (/keep) the house up to temp before 05:30. Or you could run the HP at a constant temp 24/7 which is supposed to be much more efficient anyway. Efficiency, (as in a high SCOP) is one thing. Running cost is another totally different thing,
You could have a SCOP of 5.0 but another guy could have a SCOP of 3.5 but his running costs are less because of his unit price at the time of import !
If you did upgrade to 2x 5.0 hybrids instead, you’d probably want to wait for the hybrid EMS to become available, so you’ve got a bit of time to experiment with different tariffs and settings in the meantime.
…Another potential Hybrid EMS customer there then.
Simon-D currently we pre heat house at 20 degrees overnight from 11.30pm setback to 19 degrees after 5.30am and then to 18 degrees after 8am at 4pm the heating goes back to 19 degrees until 11.30pm. (If it very cold we run out of power by 10pm)
Just re-read your post and…..
That sounds like the absolute best HP settings to use with IOG in your situation to be honest. And if you only run out by 10pm occasionally. That’s pretty optimal as it is already. A tariff with a 7 hour off peak would probably be your cheapest solution. Then you’d be lasting to 11pm on the coldest days so only 30 mins on peak, or maybe all the way past 23:30, as you’d have fuller batteries at 05:30 - all the rest at 7p ! 👏
Pete UK Thank you for the suggestions.
No my system was design from the start with dual AC 3kWh system with 4x 9.5kWh batteries with EPS.
The only problem I had was the Emergency Power Supply (EPS), I found you could only have one AC3 connected to it.
I also have two SolarEdge inverters as well for SE & SW roof panels, this is for shading from trees, but allows me to have solar and half of the battery storage off grid from a power cut.
The plan was to add a heat pump later to the house as the gas boiler was 10 years old and started to leak from the heat exchanger on my last service year 9.
Yes 7 hours would be great but my wife would like to stay with Octopus better export rates 15p, we had EoN in the past we found that customer support was not good.
I would like a higher rated inverters on the EPS side with a extra battery with EMS. If we could get higher charging rate that would be great.
Both my AC3 inverters & batteries are on very old firmware 3012 & 3009 which need to be updated, but I do have some concerns about updating the batteries.
My SCOP has been checked and it is 3.7 but system only been running from October last year.
One thing would be nice is not having my batteries drain down when I connect my EV to the system.
Simon-D One thing would be nice is not having my batteries drain down when I connect my EV to the system.
There are plenty of work arounds to fix that on the IOG tariff.
Simplistic ones and more complex ones depending on what car and charger you have.
What car/ charger do you have?
We have a Tesla and there is a quirk, that if you set an off peak end time in the Tesla app of 05:30 (pretty sure a later time works as well) it prevents the car from immediately charging when first plugged in. Doesn’t prevent IOG charging before or after that time if commanded by Octopus, it just prevents it charging immediately on plugging in and draining the home batteries.
I suspect the other problem you have is also of extra isolated(?) IOG slots appearing outside of the core 6 hours and draining the batteries into the car.
These extra slots are very beneficial for HP owners but a pain in the backside to manage your home batteries around without some clever automation. Or a bit of head scratching.
I’m slightly compromising by (only) charging the car to 80% within slots between 23:30 to 05:30 with an Octopus IOG app “ready time” of 05:30, pretty much every charging day, forgoing any earlier or later cheap divorced slots outside of the core 6 hours. On the few days when I need 100% I’ll push the “ready by” time back from 05:30 in the Octopus app to get a set of continuous slots from 05:30 till when it’s 100%. If I get divorced slots, I’ll pull the ready by time forward towards 05:30 until there are no slot gaps after 05:30. Then I’ll adjust my battery charge end time to match that (and hope my IOG schedule doesn’t modify any slots later and create gaps outside of the 6 core hours!). Most of the time I don’t change any settings. Only if I need a large car charge do I need to do the above, which is rare. Or I do nothing much and just set/ accept a lower car SOC the next morning.
There is (as always) a tiny bit of compromising (or fiddling) to be done on rare occasions but it’s extremely manageable. Either that or you go down the HA route using some clever automation.
I rarely get any slots (or divorced slots) before 23:30, or after 05:30 I’ve had a few but usually only if I need a large car charge. Extra slots outside of the core 6 hours are like hens teeth for me but do certainly appear to be location (or integrated car charger) dependent, as others report different results to what I am getting here in Hertfordshire.
I need the Hybrid EMS, so that I can utilise all ten “Timed Export” slots to automate my daily excess battery export to grid. Currently I’m managing that manually on a daily basis (outside of 5 ‘summer’ months) by adjusting the start time daily ! And I can’t use any other conflicting automation for now due to the anti- cross charging software currently running on my system.
It certainly would be nice to see the hybrid EMS some time in the very near future. Other than that I love my set up, it’s working great.
[unknown] es 7 hours would be great but my wife would like to stay with Octopus better export rates 15p, we had EoN in the past we found that customer support was not good.
Not sure if you are aware but Eon pay 16.5p for export!! 😉
[unknown] es 7 hours would be great but my wife would like to stay with Octopus better export rates 15p, we had EoN in the past we found that customer support was not good.
Not sure if you are aware but Eon pay 16.5p for export!! 😉
My Installer has just informed that the EMS V1 is now available and it will cost £660 for the Installation of EMS box to my existing dual AC coupled system. This will involve rewiring communication on the 2x AC Coupled Inverters. I have upgrade my batteries to 3020.
it more than I wanted to pay, Is the EMS worth the money, I know it does allow three charging slots now. Not had a real problem with SOC between the four batteries for the last two years.
What I would like is just a single AC unit that can do 10kW charge and discharge with low voltage batteries for my house as I now have a 9kW ASHP installed. I do not want to pay out for EMS and GivEnegy release a higher power AC in the next year.
Any problems using the EMS with 3 AC inverters as this would meet my higher discharge rate with ASHP
[unknown] yeah, but what are the odds that GE will launch a new larger low voltage AC? There was meant to be a 5kw AC inverter. I was waiting for that but hat to go to dual AC3 in the end. In the time since I’ve had mine installed, they’ve gone to gen 3 hybrid and the AIO (6kw high voltage AC). I.e moving away from low voltage stuff…
[unknown] yeah, but what are the odds that GE will launch a new larger low voltage AC? There was meant to be a 5kw AC inverter. I was waiting for that but hat to go to dual AC3 in the end. In the time since I’ve had mine installed, they’ve gone to gen 3 hybrid and the AIO (6kw high voltage AC). I.e moving away from low voltage stuff…
Smk82 Same as me I was forced down the route of a dual AC3 as I need 6kW. I was hoping that GE would still support us low voltage system users but I think you are right, lots more new products based on high voltage. I found out more information that EMS with support three slots for charging and exporting.
Do you have a EMS or planning to get one?
Thanks
[unknown] planning to. I currently use HA scripts to control my inverters and keep the batteries in balance, but that won’t allow me to up upgrade my firmware any further to the “fast” ac3 firmware. So I have to go EMS if I want to.
In the midst of planning an extension so the ems will be fitted along with some more panels. Finally then my portal and solar data will make sense and not be a work of complete fiction 😝.
Irony is if I’d waited 6 months I could have had an AIO and avoided all this issue.
[unknown] if you upgrade to the latest fast ac3 firmware you can set your inverters to in-memory registers so your balancing script doesn't write loads of instructions to the inverter registers
I gave up on the portal data a long time ago with my two hybrid inverters, I get my reports from HA as the solar and load graphs in the portal were so flawed. I think it'll be wait and see as to whether the EMS fixes the portal data; based on other new kit such as the 3 phase inverter and multi-AIO, it will be a while before the portal catches up...
I've just had an EMS + additional AC inverter installed.
I wanted to be able to charge & discharge my 2 x 9.5 kWh batteries at 6000w rather than my current 3000w.
I've had some problems with the EMS not communicating with 1 of my inverters (my original 1) but I think I may have sorted that now (fingers & toes all crossed!!)
Data wiring changes were a bit of a ball ache (they were when my original system was installed 2 years ago).
I have PV on my garage & on my house my system needs 3 x EM115 meters.
Unfortunately my installer didn't realise (and neither did I) than my new setup with the EMS needed my EM115 ID3 changing to a second ID2.
Original data communication using EM115 meters: Grid = ID1, PV1 = ID2, PV2 = ID3
New setup for EMS data communication using EM115 meters: Grid = ID1, PV1 = ID1, PV2 = ID2
The EMS installation documentation could have highlighted this change more.
Web Portal Issues...
I'm currently showing an EV charging all the time but I don't have 1
Energy Graph data is incorrect, with basically no solar generation being registered and what little is, is being reported as "Solar To Grid"
The EV issue "a LV4 issue has been raised with the portal team to fix this"
The Energy Graph issue "Waiting the deployment of Energy Graphs for EMS they are fixing issues with other energy graphs"
So it would appear that Energy Graphs are not yet setup for EMS.
I like many others on this forum use Home Assistant, and for the last few years have been using the GivTCP addon so could have probably got away without the need for an EMS but decided to keep everything "official"
geoffreycoan I am still on the original D0.535-A0.535 firmware for both AC3 Inverter, never been offered a firmware upgrade in the 2 years I had the system. My batteries are on BMS 3020 which I update OTA.
What firmware revision does the EMS need to have on the AC3 Inverters?
Simon-D What firmware revision does the EMS need to have on the AC3 Inverters?
My Equipment Firmware Versions
1 x EMS: A0.1036
2 x AC3 Inverters: D0.291-A0.282
2 x 9.52 kWh Batteries: 3020
2 x Inverter USB Dongle Firmware: 5.05T.19(Boot:V1.1.3)
1 x EMS Wifi Firmware: 5.05T.19(Boot:V1.1.4)
EMS Firmware version reported on GivEnergy Portal: 769
Some information below copied directly from the GivEnergy EMS Installation Manual
"Currently, system can support AC Coupled inverters (single phase) only on Firmware. D0.291-A0.282."
Graham_Harrison Can I ask did you see the batteries charging at 6kW with the EMS installed. The best I seen with my dual AC3 inverters is 5.6kW on the original D0.535-A0.535 firmware.
TheDragon (GivEnergy) A general question for my understanding that GE is working on version 2 updated EMS that with work with AC3 & hybrids, is that for both low and high voltage system?
Could I mix my old dual AC3 with its low voltage battery with the new 8/10kw hybrid gen 3 inverters with its own high voltage battery stack, adding extra batteries when need. I would like to have a system with 10kW discharge to use for my house EPS and I now have a heat pump installed as well with a EV.
[unknown]
Not yet, but I don't charge my batteries from the grid and the sun has been hiding behind clouds on and off for the last few days.
Graham_Harrison Out of interest, how well has the EMS been working with GivTCP in HA?
The GE energy graphs not working with the EMS doesn’t surprise me, the same happened with the dual AIO that wasn’t supported in the portal, and neither was the 3 phase. Seems the portal lags the product releases
[unknown] All appears to be working OK.
I hid disable GivTCP for a few days whist trying to get to the bottom of some installation issues with the EMS not seeing 1 of my inverters (this was recommended for me to do by Michael Smith the designer of the EMS) but once everything was working as it should I felt I was missing too much information (that I've had for over 2 years) so I've re enabled it, but with a slightly longer "Self Run" time set
To anyone who is running a dual AC inverter setup with an EMS that was upgraded from a single inverter
Do you think it handles you energy from and to the grid better or worse that it did before.
I don't think mine does
At night when we are all in bed and the house load is being fed from my batteries, I think its now slower to react to power demand than it used to be.
If we have anybody with the same setup as mine, and only charges the batteries from solar like me I'd be interested to hear what are peoples daily import from the grid
I do believe that the EMS essentially lobotomises your inverters and shifts all the power logic into the EMS itself. I can't remember the actual timings but I think the fastest the EMS can run is beyond a second (1.2s sticks in my mind) to send data to / from the inverter. How that compares to a 'vanilla' inverters reaction times I don't know, I've not really sat and watched the EM115 metering comms side - @Rubikcube may have?
Has any updated to the new battery firmware of 3022 with the EMS.
Had a notification that I can update my four 9.52 kWh batteries to the firmware of 3022.
I happy to stay on the 3020 as it is working OK
Just found the the release notes for 3022
https://givenergy2025.zohodesk.eu/portal/en/kb/articles/bms-gen-1-2-firmware-log