New system not working correctly...

OK, I'm lucky in that I have a small field to put my panels on so here's my setup:

40x JA Solar 405 Panels
2x GivEnergy 5.0T Hybrid Gen 2 Inverters
4x GivEnergy 8.2kWh Batteries
Single phase supply
MyEnergi Zappi

My installer (no names for the moment) is having a real problem configuring all this because "it's unusual to have two inverters" although it was they who specified it in the first place. I've had systems go offline, total power dumps, batteries flip-flopping apparently taking turns to charge each other, phantom consumption to the house that I know is not really happening, no proper integration with my pre-existing Zappi, one Famatel isolator keeps tripping out, flashing lights on the batteries, flashing red/green light on one of the Inverters, etc, etc, etc...

Fair enough, I've only paid a deposit so far but it's taken them 2 months from the panels going in to get this far and I've lost confidence in them. It's another week before they can send out an installation team for the fifth time.

I have many questions but my immediate ones include:

• Does anybody else have 2 inverters and are you seeing any problems?
• Is it possible to talk directly to GivEnergy tech support?
• Any pointers on what I can do to rectify issues myself?

Any tips would be hugely appreciated.

SurrreyMuso

I cannot help you with your installation as I have no relevant experience of your kind of setup but It is possible as an end user/customer to call Givenergy tech support yourself. I have a couple of times for my installation and they have been very responsive and helpful. So, nothing to lose by the sound of it and I would give them a call.

The Plant Setup you describe is (I believe) not currently a recommended option at the moment for the reasons you describe - however, many have got this working with something like Homeassistant which talks to the inverters and stops cross charging. I can't think off hand who has this on here but someone like @Tim might know. Or even @TheDragon (GivEnergy) who works for GivEnergy.

But tripping is nothing to do with that and needs looking at physically - could be pinched connections in the isolator (Common) - and possible comms issues.

As Anges said. Not officially supported. But we will try and work worth you to resolve.

Red green flashing indicates a firmware upgrade is in progress. Perhaps the installer doing this. FW latest for Gen2 is D909-A909. Not yet user upgradeable, but will be soon.

As for the flip flopping, there is an EMS (Energy manaagemen System) in trial to control them locally.
There is HomeAssisant you can use to write your own code to kick them in line.
There is also a small trial of remote server side balancing. Which is quite successful on AC3 pairs and tripples.

If a breaker is tripping that's a fault to be looked at.

Givenergy tech support 01256-774577

SurreyMuso as @anglefire says, we have two HY5 (gen1) which work absolutely fine together other than fighting to export which raises voltage higher than necessary.

Given your situation, I would expect the installer to be initiating firmware updates to each battery with calibration. The hybrids will not cross charge as there is no mode (other than timed charge) to charge from AC. With two batteries per inverter, there may be balancing issues early doors but the latest firmware should see them balance properly in time.

I suspect that you’re experiencing some installation snags with firmware updates whilst calibrating but once it’s all sorted, everything should just work.

Thanks all - I appreciate your responses. I wonder why the installer recommended this solution? There must be people with similar or larger arrays and demands than me... Living in the countryside, we're reliant on oil for heating and cooking and we're trying our hardest to get off that. A current EV and pending ASHP are the reasons for my system size.

TBH, despite my being a lecturer in Computer Science with a specialisms in Software Engineering I don't really fancy getting into coding solutions to manage the systems. However, I'm happy to be part of any trial (EMS and/or Server Side Balancing)

As for batteries charging each other, I'm seeing the following behaviour (images from Battery tab of My Inverter for the two systems):

Clearly the batteries are cross-charging.

One particularly irksome activity is that my systems are charging from the grid over night, despite both Timed Discharge and Timed Export being turned off. That power is then getting exported immediately. I'm paying for power I don't need then giving it back for free. Because my installer is withholding my MCS until I've paid in full, I'm not even getting anything back.

Is there a way of turning off all export until batteries are full?

Thanks again to you for your help.

SurreyMuso If both are set to ECO, that's exactly what they should do. Has your installer / you tried the obvious of running one inverter at a time ? That would quickly prove if you have interaction problems, as what you have is two absolutely standard configurations. merely sharing the same grid connection.

TheDragon (GivEnergy) When you say remote server side balancing is this instead of the ems device?

I am having a 3rd and final pv system installed in 2 weeks time, there is opportunity to add a second AC3 and save VAT.... Is it possible to get onto that trial?

justpassing If both are set to ECO, that's exactly what they should do.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, both inverters are in eco mode. However, if my panels are generating (and currently sending excess to the grid), why should one battery discharge to send power to the other? That doesn't sound sensible to me...

I'm quite happy to experiment but I do feel that the installer should be on this and I can see them washing their hands if I make changes and they are not involved. That's the last thing I want...

SurreyMuso why should one battery discharge to send power to the other?

They aren’t. One will be charging as part of its calibration. The other will see this as house load and is responding as designed. Once all four batteries are fully calibrated, as long as their firmware doesn’t need updating again, they shouldn’t ever charge from AC in ECO mode as unless timed charge is also enabled.

If you do want to set a timed charge, just make sure it’s set on both inverters for the same period.

Tim But they calibrated a week ago. The mutual charging is still happening days later... I'll update to 909 at some point and know there will be a full drain then but the two systems are at 906 at the moment and this is what I saw overnight:

I've got 9.5kw system (26 panels) with 25kw battery comprising of 5 batery and recently decided to put an extra dc coupled inverter in so as i can charge and discharge at 6kw.Currently charges and discharge at 3kw. My installer tried for 3 days to get it working and spoke to givenergy tech all the way through and in the end a senior givenergy tech said it was not possible to get it working. So had to put it back to how it was with just 1 inverter. My installer thinks it maybe possible to use a hybrid inverter to do this but will look into it first then let me know.

SurreyMuso maybe different for you with more than 1 battery but when I upgraded my single inverter to the magical 909 I did not need to recalibrate my 1 and only battery.

Remo Thank you for your input - I do appreciate it. Your case may not quite be the same as mine. Because my installer's design was to have two inverters from outset, the panels are split, effectively giving me two independent systems - 20 panels on each inverter.

However, the inverters see each other as demands and cannot distinguish between sending power to the house and sending power to the other system. For this to work properly, the systems would have to know about each other, which they do not at the moment. Then somehow recognise that the demand is for charging, not for domestic use and stop this flip-flop that they are doing for hours at a time.

If GivEnergy can't get this working then I rather suspect there is going to be a substantial disagreement with my installer about their design. I have paid for all the infrastructure needed for two systems when only one can be made to work...

There is an EMS box in development which is intended to manage these things but it took a back seat whilst they sorted out the SOC problems and rewrote the battery and inverter firmware. TBH I think it held back all their product development so, hopefully, they will be able to reinvigorate the development pipeline.

SurreyMuso You have a similar setup to me, which was designed from the outset to have two inverters due to the number of panels I was having installed (28, for 10.92kW).

It was only after I had had the system comissioned and reading this forum and the GE FAQ’s did I find out that this multi-inverter “plant” setup isn’t recommended which was concerning as that was what the installer had designed for me.

I don’t have as many batteries as you do, only a 5.2kW and a 9.5kW which the installer setup with both on a single inverter, and this did cause problems, as Tim says, the two inverters can fight to export and raise the voltage higher than necessary, which frequently drove the voltage over limit and caused the inverter that didn’t have any batteries on it to disconnect. On sunny days this happened multiple times a day, often for hours at a time, and with the inverter in an Error state it of course wouldn’t charge the batteries. Moving the batteries so there is one on each inverter made a big difference and I get the over-voltage errors much less frequently and now for only 5 minutes at a time.

Other than that I am having no problem with my twin inverter setup and I have never seen the batteries cross charging each other. However I have two Gen 1 5kW inverters and I think Tim has as well, whereas you have Gen 2 inverters and I have heard that the firmware and behaviour of them can be different from Gen 1.

Its definitely an issue for your installer to resolve as they are the ones that specified this setup. Unfortunately as GE say on their FAQ’s that they don’t recommend multi-inverter setups, in my experience they didn’t want to give any support when I had the over-voltage issue.
You could try:

• turning off one inverter and getting the installer to re-commission the batteries on that inverter, before repeating on the other inverter
• checking with GE and on the software portal whether you are on the latest inverter and BMS firmwares, upgrading if you are not. Again do one at a time
• having the gen 2 inverters swapped for gen 1 inverters
• waiting for the EMS box but this has been in development for ages. The last update I saw on the forum was that there are trial units going out to customers now, but GE are focussing on AC coupled multi-inverter setups first not hybrid inverters so no idea when EMS for hybrid will be available

Just as another thought, do you have too many panels on each inverter? 40 x 405 = 16.2kW peak, which I think would suggest that 3 inverters would be needed not 2 as each inverter is 5kW max.

geoffreycoan I really appreciate the detailed reply and advice. Thank you. I'm collating issues that I'll put to the technician who's coming later this week. You've given me some excellent ideas.

Although the panels are rated at 16.2 peak, I don't see anything approaching that number. Firstly, the level of efficiency and secondly, they are at the end of a 50m cable to a nearby field so I get voltage loss, even though I went for 6mm cable, rather than the standard. I did once see 10kW but the norm, even in this sunny weather is no more than 8, though I don't really trust the figures from the cloud - many of them seem quite spurious.

Not really sure I'd want a third inverter. It's not the cost but the complexity and the fact that we'd need to restring the panels, retable inside and redig the trench. No way that lot's happening...

I'm encouraged that you don't get too much trouble with your 2-inverter system. The tripping of the Famatel switch seems to have stopped after 4 days but the flip-flop charging is losing power and certainly will affect the long term health of the batteries.

geoffreycoan Gen 2 5kW inverter has max PV input of 7.5kW (from givEnergy data sheet). I also see that Gen 1 max is 6.5kW.

SurreyMuso Without analysing actual logs I wonder whether the graphs could be misleading. Although they mirror each other there appears to be a small magnitude difference, perhaps the actual overnight usage.. Could the mirroring be due to how the graph reading is taken/generated e.g., If the system A sees a power reading' is X Watts and my 'Supplying' flag isn't set I must be receiving X Watts. and the system B sits there reading the same X Watts says my "Suppling" flag is set therefore I must be supplying X Watts. Then the swap over is triggered hourly somehow?

In terms of the two systems 'fighting' each other. I'm not sure that they do, what they are both doing is fighting the grid. As long as the grid can absorb what they are producing at a given 'voltage' they should both be happy even if they were the same, and, as long as there are no physical wiring issues in the house, they shouldn't cause a problem. The problem is the grid getting to 253 Volts in the first place. (Probably caused by hundreds of other PV setups in the area).

SurreyMuso

I've just had a brand new GE system installed on 29th June (2 days ago) which I am very pleased with. However, I have exactly the same cross charging issue. It's early days but the commissioning was finished and the discharge and charge cycle completed successfully. During the Process, inverter A charged batteries 1 & 2 up 'fully' from the grid (100% and 93%) and then those batteries charged up batteries 3&4 (0% and 12%) via inverter B and a small bit of grid power as well (I think?). After that the first set merrily started charging the other and vice versa, flip flopping all day and night.

Similar system;

2 x Givenergy Hybrid 5.0 Inverters ~ Gen 3 (latest software)
4 x Givenergy 9.5 Gen 2 Batteries
27 x 420w Panels

It's been mostly overcast and drizzly my first 2/3 days since the install but the behaviour seems less pronounced when generating from the Panels. However, there still seems to be a preference for the lower state of battery pair to try and charge the almost full pair all the time.

When I inspect what's going on I see things like; Battery 1&2 (almost full) charging: 1,700w and Battery 3&4 (almost empty) discharging: 2,000w. This continues, usually indefinitely until something changes (or is changed!).

@TheDragon (GivEnergy) : I'd like to be a part of the trial until a permanent fix is forthcoming. Either the remote trial or the other one. Can this be arranged?

I'm certain we can't be the only people requiring larger(?) systems with multiple inverters these days as this size/power system is almost a must if you have an EV and a larger sized house/demand.

From the screenshot you can see exactly one set discharging to charge the other set. I fiddled abound by restarting the inverters (or just one inverter) a bit this afternoon. it works to prevent cross charging in the short term but when powerflow changes, it reverts to cross charging.

Also, @TheDragon (GivEnergy) ~ is there an update on when the EMS fix for the Hybrid 5.0 inverters will be released?

Thanks in advance !

Cheers,

Pete

Pete UK I've balanced mine with HA. Took 5 mins.

I've passed your request to Michael Smith. Head of integration. Who is heading up the balancing

This is my 2 not even same size AC3 and AIO.

Cant even tell there are 2 together.

System as a whole isn't even all GivEnergy. Solar is Solax and Solis.
All happily singing my tune.

.
Can just see at the end charge and discharge together. Stopped as it's detected

TheDragon (GivEnergy) You have an AC3 and AIO at home? all 1 setup?

TheDragon (GivEnergy)

Thank you very much and thanks for the quick reply. Yes, that would be good to see mine like that too ! - I guess Michael will pm me at some point?

I tried setting up home assistant on a mac mini but ran into a missing file (OS Agent), which I couldn't find anywhere on the internet. Although I'm fairly tech literate, it's not my day job and found it was a bit of a frustrating getting stuck to be honest, time got the better of me and I've left it for now. I'd really like to get HA sorted eventually but for now I'm more focused on the balancing.

As I said above, I'm really pleased with my new system in general. Looking forward to Participating in the balancing trial.

Cheers !

Pete UK 2 x Givenergy Hybrid 5.0 Inverters

Givenergy inverters in Eco mode won’t charge other than from PV, unless the firmware is different from gen 1. Set them both to Eco mode and they won’t cross charge.

Tim

They are both in eco mode and they do cross charge unfortunately.

Pete UK My single inverter won't charge from grid if not in Eco mode; Your statement makes me wonder if your setup is correctly wired? AFAIK the systems should be two independent setups with the only connection being a Y tie to the grid. Is that what you have?

@SurreyMuso You mentioned cable losses: I'm not sure what the non-6mm cable alternative would have been but comparing 6mm to 4mm dia you're approx halving the total resistance (from 105 milliohms (mR) to 48mR for Aluminium cable; 66mR vs 29mR for Copper). The actual power loss will of course vary with changes in current but is directly proportional to resistance.

Eg. for 50 metres of Alu and a representative current of 50A, each 6mm wire drops 0.048x50 = 2.4V; the power lost is then 50(A) x 2.4(V) = 120W.
For 4mm it's 0.105x50x50 = 262W. This is for each wire, so double for the pair. See https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/wire-resistance for cable resistance.

rivimey

It's a new install and it's wired up correctly I presume, as it was only commissioned a few days ago. Charging from the grid isn't the issue; It's one inverter constantly cross charging the batteries from the other set of batteries, (same as the OP), then the reverse. I see one set charging and the other discharging at the same time, then it flips! See my screenshot above, as well as the OP.

Also I have discovered another issue. Last night (all 4x 9.5kW batteries 'fully' charged) I plugged the car in and one inverter was discharging at 3.7kW (correctly) and the other one would only discharge at 600w and drew the rest from the grid. In the morning I have one set of batteries at '0%' and the other set still at '98-100%'.

@TheDragon (GivEnergy) : I have raised the issue with my installer but not heard back yet. Is it possible for someone at GivEnergy to remotely look at my system and see what the problem is with the inverter ending in ..G050 ? Maybe the settings?

I've got G99 approval for 10kW export, so none of the inverters should be limited, especially for house(car) use.

Thanks in advance,

Pete

Pete UK Pete I will need a serial number to find you, called Pete and ending G050 reveals many 100s

TheDragon (GivEnergy)

Inverter: FD2321G050

TheDragon (GivEnergy)

Any luck?

SurreyMuso did you get anywhere with your setup issue? I've recently had a similar setup commissioned (a lot small than yours and just the one battery for now) and I'm seeing some of the same issues regarding phantom demand. When the inverter without the battery is generating a lot, the demand shoots up. I've not been able to charge the battery properly for the last week because of it. This sort of issues doesn't sound like the Ems will be able to fix

TheDragon (GivEnergy) could you give more details on how to balance things? I'm about to setup HA with giv-tcp. I'm sure I'll get through the setup just fine but would you have some instructions on how to balance it?

agent_paul Apologies - it's been a long time since I visited this forum last. No - I still have a lot of problems. My installer has been terrible beyond words. I'm also looking for reassurance there will be no long-term damage to the batteries with constant cross-charging to 100% but I am getting none.

Sorry but I can't help but will revisit should I hear anything back from GivEnergy.