Givenergy EV charger update

FYI

https://twitter.com/GivEnergy/status/1508817616281997312

I'll have to wait until I see a full pic of it but the layout of lights across the top would lead me to think this is a similar approach to the original Ohme where the USP is more software / integration than groundbreaking design/aesthetics. The upside of that meant it was very cheap so could be a nice little earner (who knows, maybe all the sales can pay for 5 sec updates like I suspect the Zappi funds Myenergi!)

Planning to buy a second hand EV later this year. I’ll keep my eye on this EV charger as I imagine one of the big selling points is integration with the GE inverter/battery and PV.

Also really interested to see what level of software integration the GivEnergy charger has with their inverter. I'm not sure how common/uncommon our setup is, but our Zappi is effectively "upstream" of the GivEnergy CT clamp, coming off a Henley block out in the fuse cupboard. Would be good if GivEnergy have engineered a solution that accounts of this scenario. I often find myself manually balancing the level of production with battery charge rate, to ensure >1.4kW gets "exported" out to the Zappi, so as not to unnecessarily spill over to the grid. (attempting to automate that with some Python against the two APIs.)

The funny thing is the three reasons that chose me to pick a different system to the GE for my home are at least partially addressed now.

If GE had given even a hint, then I would probably have purchased a GE solution.

Still other family members are looking.

Well my EV is due between May 9th and 30th so I have sent my email to be a tester. Not sure how many people have 2 solar systems feeding an AC3 so my setup might differ from a lot of others. Though I expect I am too far aware from their offices to be considered.

I wonder why they didn't post it on here though?

I spotted it on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter - quite the omission neglecting to mention it here indeed.

Hopefully GivEnergy might also look sympathetically at cases where it would be replacing an existing charger, as the install would surely be quite simple with existing wiring in place.

Any news? I would buy it on the spot if offers V2H functionality 🙂

I think there was a reply from GE to a similar question on the Facebook group. The charge is not bi-directional.

But there isn't really any charger (eg connector/cable option) or car tech around yet and on the market to enable v2h, right?

I have not had any updates about it, didn't get a reply to my email so can only assume they have not decided who will be testing it or I just wasn't successful.

Though on a side note my zappi and setup is working great. Charged a couple of friends EV's and it all worked as intended. Going to see some increased load when trying to charge from solar only and using the oven and hob though. The ramp up and down etc.

GE my EV is due Week commencing May 30th if you still want testers.......
UPDATE never mind, I just saw the Whats New page. 10 lucky winners of the GE ev chargers.

THALL it seemed to go from testers to lucky winners. I’m hoping this means they are close to going out to market as I’m looking for a second hand EV and would like to have the EV charger within the GE ecosystem. I saw somewhere that there had been some chat about Third party chargers getting integration into the GE portal so there is always that as a backup plan.

c_squared Yeah I vaguely recall someone mentioning MyEnergi and GE integration? Would be handy to have 1 app for everything going forward.

jkazer

Nissan Leaf is compatible with this, and there are a few devices around the world that support it (Setec Power, Wallbox Quasar), just not yet around IE/UK I guess...

kerik we have a leaf and a quasar (very expensive, several thousand £, got ours in powerloop trial). Good for grid export but not sure about to home (it wouldn't work with our set up anyway, not connected to home!). The leaf being chademo is only export supporting mainstream ev for now but at least the f150 lightening is going into production now. If you got one in the UK probably big enough to live in on its own!

jkazer What do you mean that the quasar is good for grid export? I thought that all EV chargers can monitor (with clamps) the home usage, import/export, and help you to control it?

I have read a lot of good things about Quasar, that - when connect to home - would allow you to use your leaf battery as a battery for your home... so you can charge the leaf during the night with the cheap energy, then release during the day (of course when the car stays home 🙂.

Right now I struggle with my current battery size (5kW), the cost of another battery (around €4k for 8kW) makes the cost of the Quasar (around the same or slightly more expensive) tempting, as then I would have an access to 62kW battery in my leaf 🙂

Why didn't you connect Quasar to your home?

I think that very few chargers allow V2G. There's not many cars that offer V2G at the moment, but it will grow I expect. I wonder how the car makers will handle this? I'm sure that they won't want their batteries degrading due to being used as home battery storage?

c_squared and THALL if you look at the What’s New article from 04/10/2021 - Week 3 under Coming Soon it says “ EV Charger - Control and monitor your EV charging at home”
With an image showing Hypervolt as an option and lots of others as coming soon…

kerik I guess you can connect your leaf to your home. We don't do this because our charger has it's own meter separate from the house (which is also 3-phase, so we are set up for higher power grid export over house flexibility). Also, only the leaf right now allows bidirectional charge. You can use other chargers to determine if power goes to car, home or grid but not from car to home or grid.

dcsh I'd take that with a pinch of salt. It's all the ones who's APIs I reverse engineered here
I've not heard anything since so I think the route (now they have there own charger) is if you want those ones to display on the GE portal graphs then you'll have to do it yourself & push that info via the GE API (Smart Device.)

Keeping all those chargers playing nice with the portal when you have no say in how their manufacturers API works & more importantly - no income stream for doing so - is an awful lot of a Devs time used up that could be used elsewhere.

kerik Also, the V2H feature is quite limited in terms of support - you need one of their 2 supported meters.

hoggy fully agree a good dose of salt to be added to that coming soon post from 6 months ago, in the same way as the power diverter listing in the product catalog last year then nothing… if they arrive then that’s nice if not so be it.

jkazer interesting, I thought you can just connect the EV charger after the meter, close to the home, and it has nothing to do with the meter (similar to the existing EV charger). And meter does not even know/ care there is an EV charger (like my current config).

I dont think these meters are in IRL anyway 🙂

Saw the charger at the Fully Charged Live, and was told it was on sale now, however can’t find it anywhere!

AdHut It is now listed on the givenergy site, I say NOW as I do not recall seeing it earlier today.... I can see a section for it on midsummer site as well but no price so I assume it is being added right now as well. I am very interested in the price of these......

THALL
I agree, I was checking around 10am and wasn't listed
Hopefully my Solar installer is trying to get a cost as he did mention ot a week ago.
Still, no date for my car so might be able to fit this by then :-)

NigelB Well my car is due week May 30th, but I had a zappi installed in Feburary to get the government grant. Total costs was £1108 in the end. So if these come out cheaper (fitted price) I will feel a bit sick. It would of been nicer to have everything in 1 eco system.

On a product front I would still like to see an updated AC unit please GE. Might tempt me towards a second battery ;-)

It was rumoured to be around £350+VAT from the show last week. Which would be about right given it's sister / origin product it's based on (at least aesthetically - can't confirm the inside but the specs match up fairly well) comes in at around £250.

hoggy
Cheers. Good for an idea at least. A bit cheaper than others and integrated more, so might wait and see.
I assume they have just completed some final tests and will be taking orders soon.
Also saw (on Twitter) that they have purchased a property for the HQ and making them in the UK.

NigelB yeah i saw that. Id be surprised if it truly is all made in house, PCB and all in that new factory unit (unless they've also put out ads for lots of engineering and board assembly staff)
I suspect it's more "assembled & custom firmware flashed" in the UK.
(This isn't me saying its going to be an inferior product in any way or having a dig, its a proven route to market similar to how EV charger companies like Ohme operate (which is a Zencar rebrand from alibaba with customised software and a simcard shoved in.))

At the end of the day if the price and features are right, people will buy it no matter where its from.

Having the information start to appear on websites is encouraging, I really hope these are available soon. I guess what I’m still wondering about is the installation process, if a qualified electrician can be contracted in or if it needs to be someone familiar with the GE inverter etc. Obviously the major advantage of this charger is integration so I don’t want to compromise that.

c_squared Any electrician who has done the EV charger installation course, should in theory be able to install these no problem, if GE make things easy to integrate eg, tick boxes or key codes etc to say you have one fitted so the portal knows that, it could be a very easy viable option.

hoggy Ohme is not a Zencar rebrand. The PCBs are different. Just because the casing is the same, it doesn't mean the internals are.

andyvee but it is still made by the zencar/Kedesen OEM with UK based software and support which is the point I’m trying to make - that this one will likely follow the same format.
Don’t worry I’m not trying to belittle the Ohme, it’s a good charger & I know how much you care about them (plus they’ve already had my money anyway!)

hoggy Chances are internals have to be slightly different anyway to meet our regulations, which are pretty stringent compared to some markets 😃

hoggy and my money

I don't know if anyone GE monitors this - I emailed George R a list of questions about the EVSE, would be nice to get a reply regarding the connectivity side and the CT clamp for load monitoring part.

Any idea when these will be available? Seeing various posts on the FB groups, and some comments saying about they will be in production when the new factory gets up and running? I guess that won't happen for a few months?

Looking to go down the EV route in the next month or so, but want to get a charger installed also, but i'd rather keep everything GE.
But as with anything new, no doubt there will be teething issues with firmware etc.

Any thoughts?
What EV cars do people recommend at the moment?

DeanoC75 the Porsche Taycan Turbo S is a really nice looking EV. Or perhaps a 7-year old Nissan Leaf for under £10k? Our Leaf does a few hundred miles a week without going near a public charger... quite handy really when the Taycan's in the garage and it's the chauffeur's day off 😁

I can recommend the Fully Charged show on youtube for EVs. They put a decent range through some good real-world tests as well as having some fun and talking tech. Robert Llewellyn is one of the presenters and has owned a first-gen Nissan Leaf since they first imported them from Japan back in 2011 so I tend to take him as fairly well experienced with them.
I suspect what would be a "good" EV for you would depend entirely on what you want out of one - do you prioritise range, charge times, equipment, comfort, price etc.

DeanoC75 - I've been looking at EV's for some time - though still can't justify one at the moment - all our cars are bought and paid for. The wife's is the logical one to replace with an EV as she does very few miles - but how do you justify spending even 10K on a 7year old Leaf when her 12 year old Jazz costs almost nothing to run.
And to change mine, I would need something like the Skoda Enyaq for the space in the boot (The Ioniq5 is second choice but the boot isn't big (tall) enough) - and also range as I fairly often do 200miles a day (And more on occasion)
Work is going to offer a salary sacrifice scheme soon - but again my 4 year old Skoda Superb is paid for and has only done 61k and cost very little to run - so why change to an EV that will be £400 plus for 4 years and still not own all of it!
As for the lease and care schemes' - are they serious? Fully maintained for the same thing is about £600 - and at the end of 4 years you own nothing. Narda. Nowt.

anglefire My employer already has an arrangement with Tusker for salary sacrifice leases. I'm currently thinking a Leaf due to the combination of low cost (via lease) and decent range/equipment, but I'd love an Ioniq 5 for the design and spec.
For me it's a couple of years away due to finances but the only thing that will change my next car from being an EV is if Hydrogen fuel cell variants become realistically viable.

DeanoC75 Since last August I was looking for an EV around the 30k price tag and narrowed it down to the VW ID3 Pro Performance and the Vauxhall Mokka E for that small SUV feel. The ID3 was my preferred choice by a mile but I had to cancel it as the ETA on getting one was getting further and further pushed back. Ordered October 2021 and when I cancelled it the ETA was March 2023. I have gone for the Mokka E which is due at the end of the month. If you have a budget of 36k+ there are more options, the KIA EV6 and Ioniq 5 are both great even the lowered end models. But for the most part it is about finding the EV which the range and kw per mile that suite you. I do 56 miles a day at a constant 55 - 60mph so the Mokka E will do me fine. Even on longer trips the 101kw charging is fine for a 20 minute snack break :-)

The ID3 I ordered was going to be £28k, same car now is £36k+ but the Pro Performance would do around 210 - 220 mile, faster 125kw charge and was just more fun to drive to be honest. The 204ps and instant torque made it fun off the lights and if I could get one in a timely manner I would get the ID3 over the Mokka. Availability is the main problem at the moment.

anglefire We bought our Leaf as an ex-demonstrator, 3 years old, 26k miles with 3 years servicing thrown in for £10k. It's saved us about £3k in fuel, is cheap to service and fun to drive. At 57k miles would have a forecourt price of... £10k! A 3-year old Rev 2 Leaf is about £19k, it just shows how the market has changed.

Thanks for the comments, it just seems it's a minefield out there at the moment. I normally do around 40-50 mile a day at the most, and my current car is due (couple of months) to be replaced. So was just looking to see what people are doing.
Fitting the EV charger now will always make it easier in the long run, hence why i was asking roughly how long it would be and how long it would take to get an EV. I normally don't get 'new' vehicles it's near new for me so i guess even the second hand market is strong to get hold of anything

We run a Tesla and an MG ZS so sort of both ends of the scale I guess.
Tesla is a fun bit of kit with loads of power and enviable charge rates (& charger network) but certainly not worth double what we bought the MG for.
MG is a big lump for (relative in EV terms) a cheap price, although the newer ones have crept up a bit in price so not sure they are such the bargain they used to be.

How quickly things have changed. It was March 2021 that I decided on the Tesla Model 3. There was stock in the UK at that time, probably sitting in Southampton docks! It took 13 days from reservation to driving it away. It even had the government grant to reduce the cost as did my charger. Seems that the second hand market would pretty much pay me today what I paid for it just over a year ago - unheard of.

We were looking at the MG ZS also, since we want a range of better than 200 miles. We test drove it and liked it, but it's a bit big which made it challenging to get in our garage; we were going to wait for the new Focus-size model they are supposed to be bringing out later this year - then I saw a 2nd-hand Kona for about the same money so went for that, since we didn't have to wait and the trade-in for our Mazda 2 was good. Pretty happy with it so far, though found that the range depends massively on driving style and speed (we get over 5 miles/kWh for local travel, and under 4 for motorway journeys). We haven't bought a fast charger yet - I'm definitely interested in the GE one.

2nd hand market is crazy at the moment, I've seen a VW e-Up! which was a £22.5k car before rebate, so £19k retail, up for £25k with about 100 miles on it.

I know they stopped making them but that's a just crazy. Lead times on new are also very long and unpredictable.

Car wise we've had an E208 GT for just under a year and 10k miles. Got in just before prices went crazy but it now costs less than we use to pay in road tax (£140) for the entire years fuel.

If I factor in PV generation it's around 0.5p a mile at the moment.

Costs wise it was £3k more to buy than the same petrol model and replaced a CX5 diesel. My wife's job involves lots of stop and start short hop motoring so the CX5 was heading for DPF issues.

Payback on the different is under 3 years as she also gets work miles paid for - that money used to cover most of the fuel costs was the average for diesel was about £1.20.

Just checked the midsummer website and there is now a GE charger showing. Price is listed as £630 ex VAT. I’m wondering why GE said they expected it to be £350 or something around that.

c_squared Wow !

For myself I’ve ordered a Corsa e for £24k brand new. For us it’s a town car primarily and with a 200+ mile range it will be outside the house long enough to never need a public charger. Honestly I think public charging is a joke unless you own a Tesla and have access to their network. I know two people with an IPace that love them and two that hate them. The two going to the shops and back think it’s brilliant the two commuting long distances can’t wait to get rid of them. Speed kills range and covering large distances means motorway speeds. Also 50p / kWh is crazy expensive, compared to charging at home. The Zoe and the Leaf were popular EV’s for a reason, excellent for short journeys. As usual they’ve made them either bigger (Leaf) or too big a battery (Zoe) so they can charge more money, rather than keep prices down.

I too found the charger price a bit of surprise given what was touted. Especially now people have twigged who makes it (until GE get their factory going - yes i know its been tweaked but the original can be had for <£300 and substantially less at scale.)
It's going up against some very well known and proven names at the midsummer price.

hoggy Now listed on midsummer at £455 ex VAT. At least the price is heading in the right direction, still way over what was stated by GE themselves.

Does anyone know how long the warranty is? (I see that Hypervolt give 3 years but also allow extension to 5 years)

Listed on ITS now, and also have expected stock arrivals on Midsummer & ITS

c_squared The £350 + VAT touted is trade price.

makse yeah I know. I asked GE that on their Facebook post and they confirmed that. Obviously I want it as cheap as possible, but I’ll settle for a charger that works well within the ecosystem.

This looks vaguely familiar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45LZoVXvV-c

DeanoC75 at least the GE unit is cheaper 🤣

Yeah it’s made by Weeyu until GE get up and running in the UK. It isn’t just off the shelf though (PEN fault and GE integration has been done etc…)
Anyone can buy one and have it branded how they see fit from Alibaba as per this post: here albeit just in its most basic form. They can do one in black also.

I was about to get a Zappi ordered when my installer noticed his supplier had the GE charger available from Aug 1st. Can't remember the exact price he said, but it was £200 cheaper than the Zappi!
So I ordered the GE, because I have the feeling it'll integrate more easily, and GE have shown they are working constantly to improve their software to make stuff work better!

Just spotted the EV charger on this website -> £582 incl. !
It appears that it is available July 14th
https://www.itstechnologies.shop/collections/givenergy-ev-charger

NigelB That's been on there for a little while now 😄

Was about to get a Zappi installed, then my installer said their supplier will have GE Charger available on 1 Aug. £200 cheaper than Zappi.
I'm waiting now......😬

pjb904 we have a Zappi (had it a year). Do you know if it can be retro fitted to the GE system dashboard / app?

Hoping to get an EV next year, some new Renaults , reputedly will have VTG allowing stored energy to go between house and car, ( and grid?) currently only available with LEAFs ? Will the new GE EV charger be so enabled ? Or perhaps a later model is in the works? But when?😊

billG I doubt it - the charger has to be a completely different design - funnily enough I found this article this morning. https://support.myenergi.com/hc/en-gb/articles/15196766224273-Vehicle-To-Grid-V2G-

AmandaHuddleston No.

Short and sweet. 😉

AmandaHuddleston

But you can put solar and AC battery in the myenergi app. You can also add a hybrid, but it will have no idea what’s going where and when.

pjb904 Still waiting then...

AmandaHuddleston I put CT clamps onto my solar and battery tails and then you can see them in the myenergi app.

Pandorian I put CT clamps onto my solar and battery tails and then you can see them in the myenergi app.

ditto,

Ditto 3. Part of the reason why I went AC3 so I would be able to integrate properly in the myenergi app.

Hi all,

I hope GE consider a bi-directional EV charger soon, I have an AIO and a Gateway that will hopefully also allow V2H/V2G. I do not have an EV charger yet, and now this technology is available why just have an EV charger when you could power your house for say 3 days with a car that has a 65kw/85kw battery.

Makes the new 13.5kw AIO quite small. You would need to get 5 or 6 AIO’s to match this and at £5k each that’s a car 😀

GE now have competition found these today.

This one does all 3 modes
https://wallbox.com/en_uk/quasar-2-bidirectional-ev-charger

Due 2024
https://investors.solaredge.com/news-releases/news-release-details/intersolar-2023-solaredge-unveils-new-bi-directional-dc-coupled/

Have you looked at the price of the Quasar?

GE can't manage to get their unidirectional charger on the market after nearly 2 years. I can't imagine how long the wait for a bi-directional one would be....

The car also needs to support V2H/V2G..I'm sure that this will be an increasingly important capability in the future. But at the moment it is very limited (though some V2L capable cars are starting to appear).

I thought Octopus had done a trial of V2G with the cars leased through them?
I'm thinking I need to add to my home battery (only 5.2kw at the moment - not enough to get us through an evening and early morning) but getting a second-hand electric car and being able to utilise its batteries sounds like a no-brainer.

Quasar bi-directional chargers were something like £5000 to buy. That sort of upfront investment would kill any current usage case.

I've no doubt that V2G/V2H will be critical in the medium term future as we transition the national grids.

netty I thought Octopus had done a trial of V2G with the cars leased through them?

I think there have been a few trials, but most were for Nissan Leaf which uses Chademo for DC charging. Chademo has always been bidirectional, whereas for CCS, bidirectional standards are still evolving.

DD I think the issue is that there is no agreed standard!

V2L is fairly common - Ioniq5 does it for example - that's been out for several years now.

anglefire V2L is fairly common - Ioniq5 does it for example - that's been out for several years now.

Sure, but that's relatively simple since it has no need to frequency- and voltage-match with an external system, and doesn't need any kind of standards between vendors.
Blending the power from the car with the grid supply, so that the car can act as a supplement, is a bit harder. Plus could potentially be different from nation to nation, which means building it directly into the car may not be ideal.
Plus there would need to be a safe way to push the power into the grid - can't just push it back into a 13A socket. So it would need to go through a dedicated, hard-wired unit (which may as well be the EVSE), and that brings everything back to creating standards between manufacturers.

DD exactly. It’s not an easy task. There is an article on the myenergy site regarding it. Just can’t find it currently!

Hi all,

Let’s see how much the SolarEdge one is next year?

I have had a think about it and would probably go for V2H, as a car could potentially run a house for 3 days, plus you can use it for EPS.

This would mean I could use my AIO fully for export only and only use Solar to charge it? I may have to charge it at night if it has been a crap day in the sun department.

Daveb01 I assumed that V2H is the same as V2G. But it seems not.

https://electriccarguide.co.uk/what-is-vehicle-to-home-v2h/

But still needs a compatible car and charger.

This might interest some.

Have to say the internals look excellent with plenty of space to terminate the power.

https://youtu.be/d2COtntnd-0?si=DJB5YwjhsS2TMdFu

Looking at Dev builds of GivTCP also shows it has / getting support in there locally too. Not just via the API

hoggy Yes Mark is working on it. Shame I won't be getting one as part of my deal with Octopus as they aren't (currently) offering it. 🙁

anglefire Thanks for posting the link. Seeing it in the flesh is encouraging. For those of us pre-AIO, let's hope they integrate it for us quickly.

Thanks for posting the YT link - really interesting.
But does anyone know if the charger will qualify for the Intelligent Octopus tariff? i've just purchased a Smart#1 EV which isn't on the list of cars that work with IO. So I need a charger and from from other threads on the forum I learnt that the Ohme chargers would be fine.
As I have GE batteries and inverter I'm very keen to use the GE charge point if at all possible.

Separately this link to gov.uk shows that there is a lot of research going on https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/v2x-innovation-programme-successful-projects/v2x-innovation-programme-phase-1-successful-projects

downfield Ohme chargers do work, but the integration is non existent at the moment, so for people (Geeks?) like me, its a none starter. The Zappi is being trialled and is working well - certainly worth asking Octopus - its the one I'm getting - though I don't know yet when it will be installed - at least 4 weeks I guess. So I've ordered a granny charger to cover the time between getting the car and the charger being installed.

anglefire I think ohme have some beta software going on that does work with solar. Worth looking into.

Hook The issue isn't with getting hold of a Zappi, the delay is due to Octopus being busy and not having enough installers to cover the demand - though I was told they are employing more all the time.
I wanted a granny charger anyway, just so I can charge anywhere with a 3 pin socket.
And according to what I've read elsewhere, Ohme have been working on it for a long time - not the solar that is new to me, but an integration - and its not happening fast, so I'd rather have something that works now!

anglefire Thanks that's useful to know. I bought a granny charger but it's painfully slow on the Smart#1 - never more than 2kW and sometimes less - so about 30 hours for a 62kWh charge. Also I'm keen to get on to IO to get the cheap rate to charge the 2x 9.5kWh GE house batteries.
Therefore I was thinking of getting an Ohme IO-compatible charger pro tem until something better turns up - hopefully the GE charger if that works with IO or if Octo get round to adding Smart to their list. Then sell the Ohme on eBay? But from what you say maybe a Zappi would be a better stop gap?

downfield if you aren’t looking to get the data out of the charger locally then that makes some sense to get the ohme as it does work with IO. (Or is that IOG these days!)
Hopefully I’ll get an update but given they apparently do the Labour allocation on a Wednesday and I’ve heard nothing does suggest it will be at least 5 weeks!

DD Standardisation is well underway, in the form of ISO 15118-20 (which takes forward the current standard ISO 15118-2). Bi-di is the hero feature of the new standard but not the only one, e.g. security, plug & charge enhancements,

There are also lots of cars on the road that already support bi-di charging based on 15118-20, notably VW group cars like the IDs, Cupras, Audis, maybe Skodas etc (77kWh battery cars only).

In fact our ID.4 has a live menu option ready and waiting - its ready to use today, all we need is the charger!

My guess is that VW have fully implemented ISO 15118-20, as other features such as the plug & charge enhancements (supporting multiple contracts registered to the car) are ready too: we have for example registered a plug & charge contract with both VW's Elli and Octopus' Electroverse.

Plenty of other cars are on the way too, e.g. Volvo EX90, Kia EV9.

Regarding chargers, the Wallbox Quasar 2 will be on the market before the end of this year (not clear if that includes UK), there's a combined charger/home energy management system on the market in North America, and Indra are working on one for 2024. That's just the ones I've managed to dig up.

Clearly the standardisation is pretty much there bar the final sign-off, and charger/car manufacturers have ploughed ahead regardless, in a similar way to router manufacturers supporting new standards before they are 100% signed off. Presumably they are therefore confident in the hardware side, and believe they can tweak the software if any changes become necessary.

Pricing will be higher than a standard charger, because rather than just being a big smart switch, maybe with some CT integration and some solar logic in the software, these have to do much more (essentially similar to a GE AC3).

Wallbox estimated £2000-7000, and so long as it is in the lower end of that range, it would be more than competitive versus a home battery set-up like GivEnergy, given the battery capacity it enables. It also charges via DC/CCS so supplies a slightly faster charge rate (I've seen both 11 and 12kW).

The Quasar 2 appears to be being tied in with the Kia EV9, which can be pre-ordered now with deliveries in January and gives an idea of what timescales could be like (Wallbox have also said this year), so this is very much a technology that will be available imminently.

Those who can afford to be a little patient (months probably), and who have the funds, should be including bi-directional in any car and charger purchasing decisions they are making right now. We chose the 77lWh ID.4 (rather than the smaller battery version which lacks support for bi-di) for this reason alone, though it could be a couple of years before we can justify the charger, as we have a GivEnergy system already, and a charger too.

https://www.trialog.com/en/iso-15118-20-not-only-a-further-step-towards-bidirectional-charging/#:~:text=towards%20bidirectional%20charging-,ISO%2015118%2D20%2C%20not%20only%20a%20further%20step%20towards%20bidirectional,2%20standard%20released%20in%202014.

Not sure if it supports that standard but the ev6 has had bidirectional charging since launch. And comes with an internal plug and an external adapter. There are people using the adapter and a caravan connector plus changeover switch to provide backup when there are power cuts.

andyn

Thank you for the very interesting article. I have posted a few comments on this and asked GE when they will release a Bi-directional EV charger to no avail. They are concentrating on the current EV, if they don’t release it soon then no one will get it as the technology has moved on.

I found this when looking to add to your list

anglefire Well, I had a call from Octopus yesterday and my charger (Zappi 2) is being installed on Monday apparently a slot became available due to a cancellation, so after a bit of a shuffle around at work, I will be at home to sort out where is going and to move the 4 cars out of the way and clear the route in the garage!

As for the GE Charger, I thought it was available now?

In a theoretical sense they have the bones to build one, just like SolarEdge who cover the same market of inverters & EV charging.
GE already make EV chargers, they already make inverters that run from HV DC inputs (the Hybrids, the AIO and their 3 phase inverters)
Easiest / quickest rather than starting from scratch would likely be taking existing inverter designs along the lines of 2x 3.6kW Hybrid boards (with LV battery stage removed) ran in parallel + the current EV charger guts for AC charging. That theoretically would allow 7.2kW either direction.
(Not sure what is truly inside the AIO (i have my AC3 suspicions) but that too may be some use as a base, minus battery, if it's DC inputs voltage range is far wider than just what the current battery it delivers)

So I would imagine that somewhere down the line they will put the two together. Just not yet.
I'm getting the feeling that expanding the brands reach into the worldwide market is probably more of a focus than overloading R&D with more products (they do still need to nail the SOC, parallel AIO, EV charger rollout and so on.)

Totally agree Hoggy, and my conspiracy theory is if the new EV is available and a car that has a 65 kWh + battery that could support your home for three days, how would you sell the AIO and GE range of Batteries ? People would just go for Solar, EV charger and EV.

Daveb01 except when you want to drive the car….

Just spotted this on the GE website
https://givenergy.co.uk/coming-soon-givenergys-ev-charger-faq/

Interesting that they state this in the faq (https://givenergy.co.uk/coming-soon-givenergys-ev-charger-faq/)

“You can also disable the battery from discharging if the EV is plugged in and charging. This is a common problem industry wide, but one we’re proud to have solve”

As comments I’ve read from GE members and from YouTubers who’ve been given beta access seem to suggest not? Question is to me is is this a) simply stopping discharge etc so house is powered by grid during eV charging and battery just sits there or b) battery continues powering the house and is told to ignore the charger

Smk82 Surely you wouldn't want to charge the car from the battery at any time (Purely from an efficiency perspective) - but to only charge the car from the grid and the house from the battery would be a bit of a balancing act that may result in some swings to and fro. And unless desperate, most would be charging the EV from cheap off peak electric, so you would either charge the battery at the some time or pause it, so it does nothing and the house is fed by the grid too?

anglefire I’m thinking more of how ME have tackled it and it’s more like dynamic balancing. The battery is told what it can supply with a simple tick box.

Means I’m the summer you can leave the battery set at Solar charge and plug the car in to grid charge in the evening with no worries that the battery would discharge to the car.. (unless you wish it to do so)

Meanwhile they have a large stand at the NEC Solar and Storage event this week (17 - 19 Oct) so perhaps some new hardware may be launched.

anglefire True, though depending how your household operates, and which car (if you have more than one) is enabled for bi-di, the relevant car may be home for most of the time that your household is operating above baseload (presumably if a car is away, then either 50% or 100% of the adults in most households are also away, and therefore there's a fair chance kids may often be away too, either with the car or at school etc). Perhaps you'd see 80/20 when it comes to covering overall consumption.

In due utopian course I guess all cars would be bi-di and homes would have as many bi-di chargers as they have cars, so this would theoretically affect only those with fewer cars than they have people likely to remain at home, perhaps 80/20 again.

Until then, a smaller (than currently chosen) home battery and/or solar system might be enough to see the home through baseload and any other consumption (e.g. washing machine, remaining adults, older kids home alone) while the car isn't there. For those such as ourselves with existing battery/solar systems, they won't become redundant overnight for the same reason 😁.

One of those small portable (so self-install/plug-in) battery systems from the likes of Anker, Ecoflow, Bluetti, plugged in in the garage or under the stairs might be enough for this job.

For new installs of e.g. GivEnergy systems, it would change the equation: fewer panels, a smaller inverter, and a 5kWh battery might be sufficient for example, rather than maxing out roof space, battery capacity and wallet. That might limit revenue per opportunity for companies like GivEnergy, yet drive sales volumes, as it becomes practical and affordable for many more households?

5kWh/3.6kW AIO Lite anyone? 😂 This could be useful for smaller properties/flats too of course...

Such an AIO Lite, combined in a single unit with a bi-di EV charger (perhaps with an optional, modular 2nd EV connection that needn't but could also be bi-di), would be an ideal solution for many households. This could be a complete HEMS (home energy management system), a genuine AIO...

Of course many households will still have the same issues connecting a car as they do now (e.g. if they have no drive), and some of the workarounds may not be as helpful - for example, will local councils be as happy to allow the use of shallow pavement 'gulleys' for DC CCS cables as they will (hopefully soon) be for AC Type 2?

Bi-di is no panacea, but will definitely usher in a significant adjustment in market dynamics for both home batteries and solar.

andyn Ok, I get that - I have just picked up a new Enyaq EV and on one of the setup pages, it says it supports Bi-Di - but also says effectively there aren't chargers that support it yet......
To be fair, the Skoda (VW) servers are down more than they are up at the moment and its stopping Intelligent Octopus Go from scheduling any slots as Octopus can't see the car is plugged it.

anglefire Yep, I've seen the VW API being shaky the last couple of days too 🤔

They are doing 'smaller' AIOs but only on the inverter side it seems.

anglefire To be fair, the Skoda (VW) servers are down more than they are up at the moment

andyn Yep, I've seen the VW API being shaky the last couple of days too

VW have switched (for my GTE at least) from We Connect to some other VW app. Last I checked (a week ago?) not all the functions worked and there's been lots of chat on other forums about them gradually porting the features over. No idea on timescale, but it'll likely be messing with the servers as they go about it.

My thoughts on a Bi-directional charger and a car with a 65 kWH battery today.

I have Solar and an AIO 13.5 kWH, but my house uses about 15 kWh per day.
I was going to get another AIO (when available in parallel)

If I get the EV, I would not have to get another AIO, I could use the EV to support the home for the extra 2.5 kWh, plus discharge to the grid between 4-7 pm on Flux, if there is battery left at end of day. Plus I would have any EV power for EPS if there is a power cut.

Daveb01 Can you say what does 15kwh daily go on? Do yo have a heat pump?

billG

I am retired now so, cooking, security cameras, NAS, network kit, fridge, chest freezer, Sonos etc etc. just normal stuff really no heat pump.

Daveb01 and billG that does seem a little high. We use about 17/day and that includes roughly 8.5 into my car. And that's the last few days with the kids at home for half term.

MarkyG82 we use 16, 17kW a day in summer so it’s not unusual. The heat pump uses 1.5-2 for hot water but the rest is the normal house load.
I’ve been adding energy monitoring plugs to things; the dishwasher is 1kW a load, the kettle 1kW a day, the internet router and home assistant pc another kW. Surprising how it all adds up 😧

geoffreycoan
Do you run the dishwasher every day? We also don't run the kettle too much. Hallway and landing lights are smart on sensors. Other lights in the house are smart and we don't run them full chat most of the time (when on). It sounds like we are naturally low users. I should ask my in-laws how much they use. They have a very similar PV system to us. 14 to our 16 panels and the same 9.5 battery.

We use about 17kWh on average a day - which is about 6000kWh pa. Which is a bit less than we have done in the past.
However we have used 33kWh so far today. But I have just taken delivery of an EV so the battery is being charged overnight. (I might have mentioned that before - sorry!)

geoffreycoan 1.5 -2kwh for DHW via the ASHP is encouraging, we use between 3-4 daily to charge the Sunamp heat battery for all our hot water.
At the moment I put about 9.5 kWh into the gen2 GE 9.5 kWh battery overnight on eco7 15p a kWh from SP. We only got 1kwh from Solar today from a 4kw array. So most days ( apart from the Sunamp) we use 6-7 kWh feeding an oil boiler , lights, fridges, TV , cooking etc. both dishwasher and washing machine are cold fill but not every day. But there’s just 2 of us at home most days.

Trying to figure out how to get rid of the oil boiler so starting to look at high temp heat pumps but concerned about how many kWh they’ll demand .

billG we had an oil boiler but the tank failed and the regulations for oil tank siting meant we couldn’t put a new one in the same place- 1.5m from buildings and sheds and 0.75m from boundary fence.
So 18 months ago we went for an ASHP to take advantage of the grant available.

I calculated it would cost about the same to run as the oil bill and over year 1 it was slightly less. I’m hoping now I’ve got the settings better optimised it’ll improve further.
In the summer, yes it’s 1.5-2kW a day for hot water. Of course with the solar panels now that doesn’t cost me anything.
In the winter my estimate from year 1 meter readings was 20-30kW a day typically, and up to double that on extended bitterly cold periods. I’ve now fitted a CT clamp to the ASHP so I don’t have to keep going into the loft to read the meters; last week of daily usage were 5, 12, 15, 8, 17, 21 and 11kW usage. Of course any limited solar and the battery means I can reduce the cost of running the heating

geoffreycoan Thanks for this that’s along the same trajectory as I was envisaging. Not a lot of savings vs the oil , though it’s nearly 90p a litre here just now, so that price differential might change, my last lot in March was 64p. The oil price could easily jump again with the bad stuff in the ME and the Gulf? It got to £1.25 when Ukraine kicked off.

Can I just clarify, what is the make/model and capacity of your ASHP and sq m of your home?
Also when you say 20-30 kWh a day in winter is that total electricity usage,inc ASHP and household use? I’d been hoping to budget say 20kwh purely for a 7 or 8 kW rated ASHP on most winter days. We also have two main living rooms one with a coal fire and one with a log burner so extreme cold days not so much of a problem? Even at 20kwh daily on Octo Cosy I’d need to charge the GE 9.5 kWh battery twice on the cheap rate to keep the ASHP running costs down?

I’m about to have a dance with the EST grant rules person as I’m asking them ( as part of the Heat Pump grant application) to sanction taking out my electrically only charged Sunamp and replacing it with a new dual thermally and electrically charged Sunamp. They have two daft rules though. The full grant available here in rural Scotland is amazingly £9000 so lots of headroom for a modern ASHP and a new Sunamp as my plumbing and radiators are likely OK and conveniently located. No boundary problems. ( though my oil tank is probably illegal like everyone else’s in the village)

The Energy Savings Trust say :

1. Your grant for an ASHP MUST heat space AND water but my hot water Sunamp heat battery is heated by solar in summer and off peak electricity in winter( They I suspect are only used to folk with cylinders which I don’t want.
2. Because I got an interest free loan for the PV Battery system they are saying I’m breaking their rule that says they won’t provide support /fund systems with two KINDs of battery. I’ve raised this with my MP as I think this just daft.
   Ps I bought the 210 litre equiv Sunamp myself 2nd hand for £550 and got a pal to fit it, for £250 normally would have been £3-3500 fitted. Paid for itself over the summer saving 500 litres of oil.
   Anyway about to light my coal fire this morning as it’s dismal outside. Perhaps EST will say I need to block up both chimneys next?

billG expensive oil just got a quote for 73.69p. I previously worked out that the oil was costing the same to heat water as 7.5p Intelligent price. As you say who knows where it will go other than up!

billG I can’t help you on the Scottish ASHP grants, sorry! We were lucky enough to get the previous RHI grant which means the ASHP will cost me about £2k in the end.

We have a large detached house spread over 3 floors. The heat loss survey said 235 square metres and identified we would need about 15kW of heap pump capacity for the coldest periods. As there wasn’t any 15kW systems approved on the MCS list at the time we had 2 LG Therma V heat pumps installed. We too have a log burner and so maybe we could have argued down to a 12kW unit, but we didn’t.
The figures I gave above are just for the ASHP (summer and winter electricity). Home demand excluding the heat pump is about 14-15kW a day in the summer.

When we had the solar installed earlier this year I went to put the maximum we could on the roof. We had an existing 16 panel 4kW FIT array (no battery) on the rear, we filled up the back with a further 6 panels and 22 on the front making 10.4kW in the new arrays. Due to the size we had to have two inverters, a 5.2 on one and a 9.5 on the other.
My expectations are that we will need to charge the battery twice a day in the winter to run the house and heating. Up until earlier this week we were on Octopus Flux and we’re pretty much self sufficient with the panels. Now the heating is on we’ve moved to Octopus Agile and manage the charging through predbat and h9me assistant

geoffreycoan Many thanks Geoffrey , your home is about twice the size of mine and your household electricity demand is likely double. So my numbers might be about right. I had a Smart meter installed yesterday by SP. As I run on battery through the day and evening the SM display shows 0 pence per hour! Nothing to see ! I’d need to get up in the night to see some action , while the heat and electricity batteries are charging up! Will stay with SP for bit and then switch to Octopus eco7 till I decide whether to go down the ASHP road once the” rules” issue with EST is resolved.

I won't be getting an EV anytime soon... To afford one, I'd need a loan or a lease... and I quite like being mortgage and debt free in my late 40's. I have no desire to saddle myself with any more debt again and having to increase my work hours to cover the cost... I'm quite happy working from home doing 20hrs a week thank you... Gives me free time to enjoy the quite life near the sea I always wanted.

But when I do... I'll be needing a charger and vehicle that supports vehicle to home discharging... That's not an option yet, but should be mandatory on all new EV's and chargers sold.

Anomnomnomaly Personally, I have no real need for it - V2H that is - I am very new to the EV scene - but I currently like to top it up to 80% most nights - unless I know I am going to be local for a few days. I was in Somerset on Friday, (220 round trip), I'm in Sheffield on Monday and back in Somerset Thursday, with two days in between being local.
I don't want my car being used to supply the house when I might need to get somewhere in a hurry. That's what I have a home battery for!

anglefire I agree with @Anomnomnomaly , if I was getting an EV, V2G or V2H would be a must have.
I don’t drive much now I’ve retired and if I did I’d just make sure the car had enough charge because being able to use 20, 30, 40kW to run the house and ASHP would be far better use of my investment than it sitting on the drive doing nothing. Far cheaper than buying more GivEnergy batteries as well

anglefire

I've been WFH since mid 2017, and have now moved near the coast and gone mortgage and debt free.

The longest trip I've done in the last 6 months was back in April when I did about a 430m round trip in a day for a follow up appt at the hospital back near my old home.

I did a 140m round trip in Aug for a day out, and another 150m roundtrip in Sept for another day out.

Aside from that... I avg just 250-300 miles a month and most of that is local trips either in town (1-2 miles) a couple of towns over (10-12 miles). Once a week I do a 15m round trip to pick up my mum from her pensioners club.

I fill the car about every 6 weeks and it's a diesel, so avg 44+mpg.

A small EV would probably last me a couple of weeks if it had a range in the 150 miles or so... I guess that'd be around a 45kwh battery size (I honestly don't know). I could easily trickle charge it from solar most of the year or charge on a cheap tariff overnight and have it power the house for a couple of days as we avg around 16kwh use per day.

But until it's an option and EV's are at a reasonable price... it's not happening.

It takes about 40-50000 miles driving just to offset the production cost of an avg EV. I do between 4-5000 a year.... I can drive my old car for about another 10yrs and still not be polluting any more than the EV... because the carbon footprint has just been shifted to another location.

What we really need... is fewer cars on the road and better public transport... personal EV's are not a solution they're a green washing solution for a capitalist culture that needs to die.

One of the reasons I've reduced my car use so much is WFH, but also the purchase of an electric assist bike... which during the better weather will see me out and doing 50-60 miles a week just for fun. During the winter/colder months, maybe 10-20 miles because the main cycle routes both get flooded and cut my rides short.

More cycling... fewer cars.

Anomnomnomaly

Anomnomnomaly It takes about 40-50000 miles driving just to offset the production cost of an avg EV. I do between 4-5000 a year.... I can drive my old car for about another 10yrs and still not be polluting any more than the EV... because the carbon footprint has just been shifted to another location

Did this stat come from here: https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/electric-cars-need-to-be-driven-50000-miles-to-match-carbon-footprint-of-a-petrol-car-research-claims/209636 ?
A two year old study?

Actually that depends on the source you read and also the country. US probably true as they use a lot of fossil fuels to generate electric, somewhere like Norway it would be about 13000miles.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/10/29/from-manufacture-to-lifetime-emissions-just-how-green-are-evs-compared-to-petrol-or-diesel is an interesting brief article.

EV's aren't for everyone at the moment - if you haven't got home charging then the cost of "fuel" is similar to an ICE - but you still benefit (Or the environment does) from lower lifetime emissions, If you have, then cost is a lot lower. But if you are like you, use a car a lot less, then you have to question why you even have a car (Not saying you shouldn't BTW) and then buying a new EV is not viable (Unless money is no object!) - but if the environment is important, then a 2nd hand one is very viable.
I WFH occasionally, but mostly I am on one site or another and do about 18k a year - which is down from about 25-30k a year before covid.

I see Givenergy today posted on X that they had shipped EV chargers to all their stockists . So now available after a very long wait!

anglefire I would love to go for an EV... But the problems are...

1: Price, there's no such thing as an 'affordable EV' because to justify the higher cost of one, manufacturers are adding bells and whistles that aren't needed and pushing the prices even higher as they try to convince people that they're now a more 'luxury' brand. No one 'needs' an EV that can do 0-60 in 3s or less... I honestly don't give a shit about things like that.
2: Infrastructure, it simply doesn't exist... in my part of North Wales, there are 4 in my town... 2 by the town hall, always occupied or blocked because the car park is used for markets twice a week. 2 up at the small ASDA supermarket... and that's it. You've got to travel maybe 10 miles to find the next one. About 40% of the town is also unsuitable for home charging (as is about most of the UK I believe). Narrow streets, no off road parking and no requirement for charging to be implemented with new builds... and new builds are getting smaller and smaller. With if you're lucky, space for one car off road but mostly... no off road parking at all outside of the more high end builds.

I did a search of public chargers within 30 miles of where I live... there's not many at all.

Then there's the electric grid capacity... It can't cope without billions in investments.... billions that energy companies have been allowed to syphon of in shareholder dividends when generating record profits whilst the populace suffers in an cost of living crisis. Dozens, if not hundreds of renewable energy projects on hold and delayed because the infrastructure to support them doesn't exist... and a govt cutting back on renewable energy and tackling pollution because these fascists are in the pockets of their backers.

But more importantly... we need a push to get people 'out' of cars and onto public transport more... but that won;t happen.

There's 5 things that need to be free from shareholder profit in a civilised society... Publicly owned utilities, public transport, healthcare, welfare and education... because you can only improve society by lifting up those at the bottom of it first.

Rant over... again 🙂

No offence, but clogging up a thread about the new Givenergy EV charger with posts about why you won't buy an EV is very annoying.

Found this good £

If you have a GE Gateway you will need a meter and isolator switch extra.

https://www.batteryfactory.co.uk/products/givenergy-7kw-ev-tethered-charger

This is even better

https://www.ecobublstore.co.uk/products/givenergy-ev-charger

So if I swap out my annoying Hypervolt for the GE version it will show up in the app etc ? What will it show as my ct clamp is positioned so that the car never draws from the battery?
PS I will fact check any answer as there seems some errors in previous posts…..!

SimonClarke

Should definitely show up in the app.

In the marketing it did say it wouldn't draw from your battery, but not seen how that is achieved in the documentation. Awaiting early adopters to let us know. Speak to the Geek has one, so hoping he'll review it soon.

Hook according to him it can’t do that, yet when I queried GE directly they said it’s set as default not to draw from the batteries at all (unless you wish to). Will wait and see some reviews

I have one on order from Segen - due next week. I notice this in the link above to BatteryFactory:
You need to attend GivEnergy Installers Training in order to install this product. Please check with GivEnergy for details. If fitted by non-trained installer the Warranty will be VOID!

How have they trained anyone when it has only just been released?

When you will install your EV charger do you need to inform your DNO or get approval before installation?
If you need inform whose responsibility it is? Installer or owner?
Or just install and ignore DNO part? How much GivEnergy EV charger cost and availability? Why should I chose this charger instead of WallBox?

HipHopAst yes, your DNO must be informed before EV charger installation
prices vary, check some of the sites mentioned. This charger should connect to your inverter and allow excess solar to be put into the car and stop the battery discharging into the car rather than relying on CT clamps

Cdent Not sure of the ins and outs of EV chargers, I presume it’s connected to the house load and would draw from the grid overnight mainly , but occasionally or from excess solar and perhaps the house battery ?

I assume the GE app will let you set appropriate priorities.?

billG GE inverters (certainly newer ones) have the ability to directly connect to the charge, so the inverter can manage charging from the grid, excess solar or even the battery. You should be able to choose the priority and when the charging happens from the app, and the app will see the charger too.

Cdent Thanks for this . I’ve a gen 2 Hybrid 3.68 GE inverter which is only 6 months old. I’d like to hear folk who have similar set up when they get a Gae EV charger and link it to hopefully an MG4🥲

billG I have the GE hybrid Inverter and ev charger, on the whole with the latest updates it integrates and works well.

The only downside is it's not supported by octopus, so getting intelligent go is not possible as my car is also not supported. I was told a months ago it was on the way, nothing yet. Luckily I can charge cheaply at work

I got my GE ev charger free with my second AIO. It’s still in the box until I read reviewes that say it actually works properly.