Inverter - System Mode settings

The KB describes modes 1,2,3,4 and battery smart charge, but I have seen some recent threads that mention Eco and Winter modes. Has the cloud portal update changed the available modes, and if so where can I find the updated documentation on exactly how they work?

As a potential GivEnergy customer, documentation is needed so it is possible to understand if the product is capable of operating in the way I need it to for optimum efficiency and energy cost saving. All before actually buying the product, not after, then finding I needed a completely different product.

Mode1=Dynamic (Default)
Mode2=Store for later use (4pm until 7am)
Mode3=Times battery discharge to meet demand
Mode4=Timed battery discharge at full power (export)
Battery smart charge runs in parallel to the other system modes.

The modes are still there but on the web portal and app are not referred to by mode 1,2.... I believe battery smart charge is Eco.

For info here is the output from the get settings preset API call which shows all the options -

{
"data": [
{
"id": 0,
"name": "Eco",
"description": "This mode will dynamically charge and discharge your batteries to minimise your import from the grid",
"parameters": {
"enabled": {
"description": "Enable or disable the preset",
"validation": [
"required",
"boolean"
]
}
}
},
{
"id": 1,
"name": "Timed Charge",
"description": "This mode will force charge your battery from the grid during a period you define",
"parameters": {
"start_time": {
"description": "The time that the charge should start",
"validation": [
"required",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"end_time": {
"description": "The time that the charge should end",
"validation": [
"required",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"second_start_time": {
"description": "The time that the second charge should start",
"validation": [
"optional",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"second_end_time": {
"description": "The time that the second charge should end",
"validation": [
"optional",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"enabled": {
"description": "Enable or disable timed charging",
"validation": [
"required",
"boolean"
]
},
"percent_limit": {
"description": "The maximum percentage that the battery will charge up to",
"validation": [
"required",
"integer",
"min:0",
"max:100"
]
}
}
},
{
"id": 2,
"name": "Timed Discharge",
"description": "This mode will discharge your batteries to your home during a period you define",
"parameters": {
"start_time": {
"description": "The time that the discharge should start",
"validation": [
"required",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"end_time": {
"description": "The time that the discharge should end",
"validation": [
"required",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"second_start_time": {
"description": "The time that the second discharge should start",
"validation": [
"optional",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"second_end_time": {
"description": "The time that the second discharge should end",
"validation": [
"optional",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"enabled": {
"description": "Enable or disable timed discharging",
"validation": [
"required",
"boolean"
]
}
}
},
{
"id": 3,
"name": "Timed Export",
"description": "This mode will hold your battery power and discharge it at full power during a period you define",
"parameters": {
"start_time": {
"description": "The time that the export should start",
"validation": [
"required",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"end_time": {
"description": "The time that the export should end",
"validation": [
"required",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"second_start_time": {
"description": "The time that the second export should start",
"validation": [
"optional",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"second_end_time": {
"description": "The time that the second export should end",
"validation": [
"optional",
"ISO8601-date"
]
},
"enabled": {
"description": "Enable or disable forced exporting",
"validation": [
"required",
"boolean"
]
}
}
},
{
"id": 4,
"name": "Battery Options",
"description": "Operating Range",
"parameters": {
"discharge_power": {
"description": "The maximum discharge power of the battery",
"validation": [
"required",
"integer"
]
},
"charge_power": {
"description": "The maximum charge power of the battery",
"validation": [
"required",
"integer"
]
},
"reserve_percent_limit": {
"description": "The percentage that the battery can discharge down to. The rest is saved for discharge during grid failure (EPS)",
"validation": [
"required",
"integer",
"min:4",
"max:100"
]
}
}
},
{
"id": 5,
"name": "Reset to Defaults",
"description": "Reset all charge modes, timers and limits to their factory defaults",
"parameters": []
}
]
}

The four modes listed are the discharge controls as listed in the app under Modes 1-4. Smart Charge is one of the "Independent" features on the app and allows you to specify a time period in which the battery will charge from the grid up to a set % of capacity. It's sort of the inverse of a Timed Export.

The purpose of Smart Charge IMO is if you have a dual rate tariff such as Octopus Go or an economy 7, giving you the ability to charge the battery when it's cheap to do so without affecting the discharge parameters (which can still be any of modes 1-4)

Hope that helps.

Simon_C Following my last, the modes on the cloud portal don't match those you've listed. The portal the following, which map broadly to yours as follows:

Eco (Mode 1 - Dynamic) - uses the battery to minimise grid import, charging from solar when possible and using the battery as needed
Timed Charge (Smart Charge) - charges the battery at full power from the grid during a time window you specify
Timed Discharge (Mode 3) - Discharges the battery into the house during a time window you specify
Timed Export (Mode 4) - Discharges the battery into the grid at full power during a time window you specify

As for combinations - I've verified that you can set (not tested in practice) Eco with either a Timed Charge, Timed Discharge, or both of the above. However if you set a Timed Export that overrides the Eco mode completely.

So you could, theoretically, set the battery to Charge at a set time, Discharge into the house at a set time, and still have Eco on in the background. This does seem illogical as the whole point of Eco more or less negates the purpose of a Timed Discharge.

If you use a Timed Export, that turns Eco off instantly as the system deliberately holds the battery at full capacity until its time window. I believe you could use a Timed Charge and a Timed Export simultaneously but not Timed Discharge and Timed Export.

Of course if you are of a will to do so the API allows for far more control. I believe it would be eminently possible to mimic a timed or circumstantial mode change via an application. Then it's just a matter of what you want to achieve and what data you need to enable it. There are a fair few people on here who have done that kind of thing - haven't tried yet myself because I'm lazy!

Hopefully that all makes sense. If you have any specific ideas of what you want to do, feel free to post them and I'm sure someone has already tried or done it and can advise on practicality.

Thanks MRich, it is becoming clearer.
I already have an EV with a Zappi v2 charge-point, and am on an E7 tariff for now which is a 7 hour window between 2300 and 0700, so I use 0000 to 0600 to be sure at the lower rate.
Thoughts were to change the settings per month or on predicted solar PV for the following day.
So in Winter, set Eco mode 1, plus 0000-0600 smart charge to a %age based on potential shortfall of solar that day, 100% if a bad day, and say 50% on a good day to allow headroom for solar charging without filling the battery between 1000 and 1400.
By having the smart charge, does that block discharge if I am also charging the EV during the same low rate period, or does the inverter need to be set for mode 3 for the rest of the day 0600-2359 to prevent discharging the battery in to the EV between 0000-0600?
Summer would not need the smart charge, as there would be enough generation to meet the house load, fully charge the battery, and have an excess for the EV. The discharge block would still be needed when charging the EV at the low tariff between 0000-0600.
In Summer with excess solar, but not the required EV minimum of 1.4 kW, and the battery close to fully charged, I was thinking of using the timed export mode 4 for a couple of hours between say 1200-1400, which with the 3.6 hybrid inverter would dump 3.6 kW minus the house load in to the EV via a Zappi v2 charge-point. As the solar output decays later in the day the battery could then be re-charged over a longer number of hours but at a lower rate.

On looking at the operating mode details for some other hybrid inverters plus batteries, the GivEnergy solution seems most likely to fit my usage patterns with an overnight cheap tariff. It certainly takes some research to find the available options though.

@Simon_C when in eco + smart charge mode the battery will charge up to the requested percent from the grid during the smart charge time period and then maintain the battery at that level until the end of the smart charge period (i.e. if the house draws some from the battery it will then top it up again from the grid).

In terms of automating how much to charge the battery with cheap rate each night based on forecast for the following day here is a little python script that I use to do just that - https://github.com/lockedj/solarbatteryoptimize

locked
During the E7 window for battery charging to a %age, if I am charging the EV at the same time, I do not want the battery to discharge. It misses out the battery charge/discharge cycle losses if the car charges direct from the grid.
Does this require the TimedDischarge to be configured for the remainder of the day, so TimedCharge = 0000-0559 and TimedDischarge=0600-2359?
Will these co-exist with Eco=Enabled for minimum grid import during the day?
Also during TimedCharge to say 75%, if the left-over from the previous day is above this value, will the battery discharge down to 75% at the ECO rate required for zero grid import/export?
Lots of questions I know, but it is not clear exactly how the inverter will respond to the various settings. It would be better if GivEnergy provided some documentation as it is not clear how the different settings interact.

Simon_C I've just changed to EdF's EV tariff (actually three different schemes which you can flip between) with a view to moving onto the dual rate in the autumn to charge our batteries overnight when there will be insufficient solar. We also have an EV and ZappiV2. The Givenergy system is set to ECO all the time currently, the Zappi is set to ECO+ (200W minimum export for 30 seconds) where it will divert all export to the EV as long as it's plugged in. Generally it all works well and we haven't used grid energy to charge the EV since early February.

Come the autumn when we swap to the dual rate tariff, I plan to set the Givenergy to a scheduled overnight charge from grid to bring the batteries up to a level to guarantee we are supplying the house for the next 24 hours. I also plan to set the Zappi to a timed charge during the exact same period. Outside the scheduled charge period, I will leave the Givenenrgy in ECO mode and the ZappiV2 in ECO+. I've not actually tried this but believe that it will result in both systems being charged from the grid at the cheap rate overnight while saving the Givenergy batteries for house duty only.

Tim
Your planned Autumn setup sounds like what I would like to achieve.
You must have a large PV system and/or low EV consumption if you have managed to rely just on solar charge for the EV since early February.

@Simon_C afraid I cannot give a definitive answer as I do not have an EV. re "Also during TimedCharge to say 75%, if the left-over from the previous day is above this value, will the battery discharge down to 75% at the ECO rate required for zero grid import/export?" If the SOC is above the charge to percent then it will discharge to the house as needed down to the percent level during the timed charge period. On good days when there is a good SOC by the end of the day and when the forecast for the following day is good so charge to percent is low, the house does not draw from the grid during the charge to period or for that matter any other period.

Simon_C
"You must have a large PV system and/or low EV consumption if you have managed to rely just on solar charge for the EV since early February."
My thoughts exactly 🙂

I have the same setup - Zappi in Eco+, Inverter like this:
Eco - Enabled
Timed Charge - Enabled, 0:00-9:00, x% (to top up the battery with a cheap, nightly tariff)
Timed Discharge - Disabled
Timed Export - Disabled
Battery Options - Reserve 4% (or whatever you need to keep something in case of emergency), Charge Power 2600W (100% = full), Discharge Power 500W (20%).

I have never a situation when the energy left in the battery was more than x% in the Timed Charge 🙂

I can charge the car and the battery to required x% during the night at the same time, no problem.
Also during the day - if the battery is full (100%) and the system starts to export to the grid, Zappi can see it (if the export is more than 1.4kW/h) and starts to charge the car.
The only issue could be that if the solar production drops below 1.4kW/h, the battery tries to compensate, and it can drain the battery completely. To avoid that I have the discharge power set to 500W - effectively if the solar production drops below 900-1000W/h, the battery can no longer compensate (to reach 1.4kW/h) and the car does not drain the battery.

Notes:

• if your battery is AC, you can have a clamp on it to tell Zappi that it takes the power from the battery (not from panels) and to stop the battery drain.
• you can configure in Zappi to take something extra from the grid to reach 1.4kW/h required to charge the car, for example 10% - then panels can produce at least 760W/h to start charging the car (760 from panels, 500 from the battery, 140 from the grid).

kerik
Not sure limiting the discharge power to 500W is ideal, as this will not cover large household loads such as kettle or washing machine during the day, so will draw the extra required from the grid at the high price rate.

Also charging the EV at 1.4 kW is not very efficient. Whilst charging, the EV uses around 200-300 W to run the electronics and temperature control of the EV battery, hence my thought when at home during the day to do a short boost at the full a/c output of the inverter. On a day with enough expected solar PV to cover the house load and charge the GE battery say 1.5 x capacity and have some left over for the EV, say 20 kWh solar PV, 5 kWh house load, 9 kWh GE battery charge, leaves around 6 kWh for the EV.

Plug the EV in to the Zappi, set to Eco+, then set the GivEnergy inverter to max discharge for 1-2 hours. When the GE battery is discharged to say 50%, switch off the boost and set back to Eco. On a Summer day, the solar PV for the rest of the afternoon/evening should be enough to fully charge the GE battery again. It all depends on the relative sizes of the solar PV, GE inverter and GE battery along with your household consumption.

I will have to do a spreadsheet with hour by hour typical kWh values to see if it will work out more efficient.
In this example solar PV = 1400 + 800 = 2200 W, house load = 800 W, battery fully charged, solar excess = 2200 - 800 = 1400 W.
With a solar PV excess of 1.4 kW over 4 hours going via the Zappi, and an EV electronics load of say 250 W, the EV battery will receive 4 x (1400-250) = 4600 Wh out of a total 4 x 1400 = 5600 Wh.
With the same 5600 Wh through the Zappi but at 2.8 kW (3600 - 800 house load) over 2 hours, the EV battery will receive 2 x (2800-250) = 5100 Wh. There will be some extra round trip losses with the portion of power coming from the GE battery (3600 - 2200 = 1400 W), but this will be diluted by the 2.2 kW (1.4 kW excess) coming from the solar PV at the same time for this example.

In Summer with excess solar, but not the required EV minimum of 1.4 kW, and the battery close to fully charged, I was thinking of using the timed export mode 4 for a couple of hours between say 1200-1400, which with the 3.6 hybrid inverter would dump 3.6 kW minus the house load in to the EV via a Zappi v2 charge-point. As the solar output decays later in the day the battery could then be re-charged over a longer number of hours but at a lower rate.

5kwh house load for the day? Jeez. I have half of that consumed before 9am! We’ve used 12.8kwh so far today and apart from the dishwasher haven’t run anything of note today.

Simon_C Not sure limiting the discharge power to 500W is ideal, as this will not cover large household loads such as kettle or washing machine during the day, so will draw the extra required from the grid at the high price rate.

• It depends on the household. With that setup I have never a situation when there was something left in the battery at the end of the day. I have no gas, my whole house runs on the electricity, the heat pump, the oven etc. But with this it can stop the car to drain the battery.

Simon_C Also charging the EV at 1.4 kW is not very efficient. Whilst charging, the EV uses around 200-300 W to run the electronics and temperature control of the EV battery, hence my thought when at home during the day to do a short boost at the full a/c output of the inverter

Yes, this is also something I do from time to time, but it requires you to be glued to the system and switch various settings on and off during the day. 1.4kW/h is set as a minimum, usually it is faster when panels produce more. I also sometimes disconnect the car if I can see that the battery is down to 80% and I hope there is still enough sun to charge it to 100%.

Simon_C On a Summer day, the solar PV for the rest of the afternoon/evening should be enough to fully charge the GE battery again

My solar PV face east, so the production in the afternooon/ evening is small... But I get your point and do this from time to time. Sometimes I do this when I know my wife is going to use the car during the day - I dump some % from the battery to the car at full speed, then hope the battery will be charged back to 100% 🙂

In short - seems we are doing the same thing...
I really would like to have vehicle-2-home capable charger. Then I would not have to think about this at all, just use the car as a big battery (62kW), keep it at 80% and use to charge the house most of the time 🙂

Simon_C Also charging the EV at 1.4 kW is not very efficient.

Yes we do have a large south facing 12kWp PV array and two 5kW HY5 with 8.2kWh batteries attached. Having made the decision to invest in solar, we covered the roof as the installation costs would be pretty much the same however much PV was installed. We just knew that if we went for a single inverter system, we would always be wishing we had put more up there.

I neglected to mention that the Zappi is set to 200W minimum export for 30 seconds and 100% Minimum Green Level, so it will only use what would otherwise be exported. In practice, export has to be at least 1.4kW because of the 100% MGL. The issue of 1.4kW is that that is the minimum that the Zappi needs to deliver energy to the EV. Any less than 1.4kW and the Zappi waits. Once export exceeds 1.4kW, it diverts all export up to the maximum the Zappi can handle, which is 7.2kW. There are times currently when we have 10-12kW "on the roof" for a short period, a house load of 500-600W (unless we have washing or dishwashing to do), the EV at 7.2kW and still exporting to grid. We have applied for a SEG tariff from Octopus and we're hoping the income from that will cover the daily standing charge and the roughly 800Wh each day to buffer the response times of the inverters.

It is purely our good fortune that we chose an installer who wanted to use the Givenergy plant as it works really well with the inverters sharing load almost perfectly. We did do more research on the EV charger to get one that would respond to exported energy and the two together really do work well.