Givenergy moving to monthly subscription for cloud access

Anyone else received the mail just now from GE about moving to a charging model for the cloud app? Not sure it's what I was expecting, but now it's arrived it seems like it was inevitable..

Hi,
I need to speak directly about an upcoming change to the software that powers your GivEnergy system. To date, it has been provided free of charge, funded by ongoing hardware sales.
Infrastructure, data storage, and operations all have ongoing monthly costs. Our products can last over 15 years, which adds up to many hundreds of pounds over their lifetime.
As our user base has grown and hardware sales have slowed, that model no longer works.

What’s changing

To continue operating the platform sustainably, we’re moving to a model which - I hope you’ll agree - is simple, fair and transparent:
• Local access remains free, forever
You’ll always be able to manage your system over your home network. Your system can continue to function independently of cloud services, for those who want a more hands-on approach.
• Cloud access will become paid
A single monthly fee will cover remote access, historical data, automation, and API usage (including third party remote access). These are the services which mainly drive our ongoing costs.

How this change will save you money
The software is not just a convenience. Smart Tariff actively reduces energy costs and carbon intensity compared to static schedules.
Our goal is simple: for the subscription to save you more than it costs, with upcoming improvements to our use of:
• Automatic charging on time-of-use tariffs
• Solar generation prediction to optimise charge levels
• Export strategies to maximise income
• Integration with EV chargers
As just one example, we’re implementing an option to charge your battery a little less overnight if we know your solar will produce more power the next day for your average usage – our calculations show that this alone can save 50p per day on average.
Our goal isn’t to profit from the software but to make the platform sustainable, so it can continue to operate reliably for the long term and support our vision of empowering energy freedom for all.
We’ll continuously review pricing to ensure it remains fair and reflects the cost of running the service. If we’re able to reduce costs over time, we’ll reflect that in how the service is priced.

What about managing it yourself?
Some customers prefer to take full control of their system locally, using their own tools and setup. That option will always remain available, and we plan to make this easier than ever before in the coming months.
However, it typically requires:
• Additional hardware (a home server or controller)
• Ongoing electricity usage to run it
• Some networking tools and knowledge
• Trust and/or cost with additional software vendors
• Time and effort to configure, monitor, and maintain
For most users, a managed cloud service is not only simpler and more reliable, but also cheaper overall once these factors are included. And, once the managed service is optimising your battery usage, this will easily offset its cost - and more - while you sleep!

A personal note from me
I’ve recently taken responsibility for GivEnergy Software, with a very clear goal: to make the platform sustainable and de-risk its future.
I know that the GivEnergy experience - in software quality and hardware support - hasn't always been where it should be. That's on us. I am confident that we can make this work if we get this transition right and fund the product fairly and effectively. That’s why your input matters.
I’ve put together a short survey to understand how you use the software and what matters most to you. It should take only a minute or two – there are 12 questions, most are multiple choice and all are optional. There’s also space for any other thoughts you may have that aren’t covered by the questions.
Your responses will directly influence how we implement this change. We’ll feed back with your aggregated, anonymised responses in a future blog post, for maximum transparency.

What happens next
We’ll review your feedback and feed back the results quickly. We’ll share full details on pricing and timing, with the new model beginning in May.
We know this is a significant change, and not everyone will welcome it. My aim is to be transparent about why it’s necessary — and to ensure the platform continues to sustainably deliver real value for those who rely on it.

Predbat to become even more popular.

I've received this too. Doesn't give any indication of costs. Not sure about the grammar where it talks about "Cloud access will become paid". I think it means that cloud access will become paid, for those that want a more hands-on approach.
Finally, considering this is a "Personal Note From Me", it doesn't actually give the name of the person that sent it!

I guess everyone got the email.

Pete UK Yeah, I created my post in case it was in batches. In hindsight, that was probably unnecessary.

Hmm, so if your on say Axle, Predbat Cloud, WonderWatt etc - you'll need to also pay for Givenergy Cloud (API Access) too then

'I know that the GivEnergy experience - in software quality and hardware support - hasn't always been where it should be. That's on us.'

They're not kidding - maybe there will be a follow-up email explaining what they will be doing about that too!

hoggy Or IOF, not that people can sign up for that tariff anymore.

It's kind of Givenergy-esque isn't it. Just not quite right bless them. It feels like desperation and possibly the only way to keep something afloat for the domestic market? A transition point before the business gets hived off, so sign up existing users under the Giv name before that happens? I just don't see how they can get Giv back on the rails so surely this can only be a stop-gap and transition to something else?

I've seen this with software vendors who sold their products initially at a "one-off" price until it became unsustainable - the ones who weren't big enough to force a SAAS subscription model, then went bust. If the rest of the business looked rosy, this might work, but it doesn't - so I guess the question is what comes after this?

It seems reasonable. The actual model has not been created or coated. Cutting the link and using Prebat might, for some, be a solution but you would probably lose this forum.

This forum is probably worth funding simply for the wealth of knowledge.

As for actual costs and model that would depend on users willing to pay. To that end there is a survey. I have not taken that yet as I wanted to gauge reaction here.

If 'many' would opt in £5/m might be acceptable. If 'few' the cost would obviously be greater. Would £10 or £20 be acceptable? It all depends on the cost to provide being covered by willing to pay.

Atkinstagram If you do the survey then it intimates the level of costs up to £12.00 per month I think it was and asks you what you would accept I said £0

Interesting move!

• I'm not aware of any other supplier charging for this software? In which case that should pretty much kill any remaining new sales?
• I'd be happy to have local control, but it's never worked ... wonder if I could get support to fix that .... hmmm?
• So basically it will be pay up or no control... that will be an interesting legal position.

I guess the argument will be - if we don't pay up, company will go bust then we'll have no control anyhow...

For me, I think this will be the final straw but interested to hear others thoughts.

duplada Yup, and I did the same. Really poorly handled - no info, just a "we're doing this, but give us your input so you feel like you're we're using lube at least".

I too have received this email. Forgive my ignorance here but how exactly does this impact us all. Right now I just use the app and the web portal to manage the charging routine of my battery. So..

1. Does that email mean they will start charging to use the web portal ?
   2.Does it mean they start charging for the phone app ?
2. The phone app has 'Home' & 'Away'. I assume only 'Home' will be free now ?
3. API usage and the like will now incur a fee as I understand it. I don't use this
4. Cloud access ?.. what does that include ? 1&2 above ?
5. Some battery data will not be accessible unless paid for as I read it.
6. How does this tie up contractually and legally as some of us bought the product based on this service being included too?
   Thanks

So would you need cloud access for Intelligent ovctopus?

We are using a GE funded portal.

The smart move, to not alienate the last few people who recommend GE based on their system, would have been to introduce a charge for new users and a reduced charge (possibly even zero for another year) for existing users.

However it’s a smart business move because monthly recurring revenue is absolutely golden when it comes to selling your business

wrighar
yes, and any other API integrations like Axle Energy which is popular with quite a few people

Also be careful of a discounted yearly subscription. Been stung that way before if they go under you lose that as well.

So if they charge for the API usage you will need to pay so that any third party service that you use can function..

We make most of our savings from solar, so the battery system maybe saves a little extra per day on that (more in winter), thus any subscription would need to be set extremely low (bottom £2/pm level) to still make having the battery attractive enough for us to want / need full Cloud access. But many other battery systems don't apply a subscription and if I was a new customer it would put me off.

Doesn't this proposal also change the existing contract, including with suppliers, which may throw up other issues?

I guess I'd pay a small amount if it meant the difference between keeping cloud alive or GivEnergy dieing. But as others have said, the bigger problem is the lack of direct human support and communication being provided. No word on how they propose to improve that.

And likely high margin on the basis that they have to run it anyway in order to efficiently manage updates, control the fleet via API etc. so it’s money for nothing - sorry for upgraded software, one day, maybe ...

Atkinstagram they talk about APIs, wondering if this will Impact HomeAssistant in any way.

Also does this mean their website will also not be available?

Question 10 was a fun one.

While I understand the reasoning, it's difficult not to feel that this is a bait and switch. The framing of "savings will outweigh the subscription cost" is a stretch too - those savings were priced in at the start when I bought the system, i.e. there's no extra benefit here.

GivTCP should still work via local APIs, but you can use Predbat in Cloud mode which would presumably require that you subscribe.

hoggy ...and if you disconnect completely then you lose your warranty (everyone stop laughing at the back about being able to claim in future).

Sounds a LOT like predatory behaviour and not at all in the letter or spirit of the CRA 2015.

I'm waiting for the transformation to "Powerdog" myself 😉

Stoo what has intelligent octopus got to do with api? It’s a fixed time based rates, all you need to do is set you system to start charge at that time and stop at the end time.

How does api fit into this?

deepanshus I'm not an expert by any means but I've been researching options for the last 6 weeks and last week implemented Home Assistant - easy and effective. My understanding is that Home Assistant, RubikCube app and the BBC Inverter app will not be affected. All of the key information and control is resident on the inverter so those devices and apps access that. You can also access them via VPN remotely. However, how it leaves things like future firmware updates is debatable. Happy to be corrected if any of that is inaccurate.

Vestas It does feel like the Powerdog move is pending.... Grab the punters and then hive it off. But then a gradual demise.

Vestas local reads and writes get spammed to their server so they may find if everyone jumps to local control their data ingress bill actually gets a lot bigger!

Atkinstagram As our user base has grown and hardware sales have slowed, that model no longer works.

I thought the hardware sales point was interesting...

sponev What makes you think that there is going to be anyone working on new firmware. What you are looking at here is a salvage operation.

Warranty will be next on the list.

sponev the owner has broken cover on SpeakEV forum saying its totally seperate endeavour (and then further down states it is funded by Givenergy's owner) - who knows anymore.

sponev
Well I am happy with £2/month to be able to converse with you all on this forum..
So it looks like goodbye!!

hoggy Been a while since I was on there but I'll pop over for a look. More changes pending no doubt.

PolarESS was pay for GEcloud, but I can't remember what the fee was.

CW exactly with so many people now taking up solar, it’s a shame to acknowledge that your particular hardware sales is going down !! It’s counterintuitive, unless , like my installer said, GE commission is such a nightmare that they don’t want it installed.

Perhaps they should have looked at the root cause rather than alienating existing users.

duplada good point.... which is why the whole thing feels increasingly absurd and without any sustainability.

Cynical me says that this makes a pending sale of the business a bit more valuable if they can demonstrate a paying user-base.
The email is laughably amateurish.No name, yet trying to be "chummy". "Honestly guv'nor, this will save you money (but I'm not gonna tell how much I will charge). A cowboy builder would sound more reliable than this joke of a communication

without API access will the installer be able to remotely access and manage systems or will they always have to attend site?

As someone else mentioned on another thread, what about the functions that are only available (currently) in the cloud (calibration for instance) - will all that capability be provided into the app at local level or will certain capability be lost ?

hoggy Their data bills are minimal, as are their AWS bills.

Its all about monetising that VPP userbase regardless of what you do to their batteries 😉

CW So what happens if GE go bust or your broadband & phone are offline for extended periods?

Can you still control it locally? Well no you can’t, not with the GE app or portal.

The app has a “Local/Home” setting but the app relies on contacting GE servers before it’ll talk to the inverter on your property.

If you can’t contact those servers/they no longer exist then the GE app is useless.

There’s another issue in that the inverter/dongle will restart its network interface every ten minutes or so if it can’t find the GE comms servers IP addresses.

However it transpires that provided you can send the inverter a “heartbeat signal” then the dongle is quite happy to stay online.

So how do we do this?

First - GivTCP v3 which you can use with Home Assistant. Its not hard to do (there’s videos online and it’s basically point and click) but the price of Raspberry Pi’s are not what they were. It’ll allow setting the clock and has calibration controls. GivTCP v2 doesn’t appear to provide the “heartbeat signal” so its going to be awfully unreliable for automations. I’m going to have to fire it up now and then as v3 doesn’t expose the PV string controls (independent/one string) I have on v2. They come in handy for sunny winter mornings.

Next – and the one I’d recommend - is Rubikcube’s Inverter app on Android. It does pretty much all the stuff you’d need if GE went bust, with the exception of calibrating the battery. This does need to be left running to get most benefit but can be run the same way as the GE app, just won’t keep stats. Should be reliable either way. It is only on Android and the developer’s name is Andrew Millar. The free version provides a heartbeat signal too. Runs on ancient versions (Android9) so cheapo/CeX tablets for those of you on Apple.

BBC Basic Inverter – this one’s on iOS store, IIRC you can sideload a version on Android. I don’t really know much about it as it didn’t seem to have the same controls on Android – I downloaded it to set the clock a while back. Its not exactly reliable in where it puts the user interface but YMMV.

The speculation is that were GE to go bust then its likely the givenergy.cloud domain would be bought/transferred to a phoenix company (with the software assets) who would monetise the app.

In short - you can have free access and let us control your battery etc or pay a monthly fee. For a lot of people on “intelligent” tariffs/DRS that’d mean a monthly fee would be compulsory.

So the answer is that yes we do have other options and its not going to cost a fortune to exercise that choice thanks to the largely unpaid efforts of volunteers.

that's from another thread earlier this month

deepanshus With Intelligent Octopus Flux you are handing control of your battery system to Octopus who control it through APIs. Import and Export are charged/paid at the same rate. No APIs, no control, no tariff.
That is a different proposition to standard Flux with the fixed three rates and times for import and export.
IOF usually works out best for net exporters as energy you do import is more expensive than other options, but you can earn a lot more on export.

Roy124 It was promised as free forever:

One of the reasons for me getting the GE system is the ability to access it anywhere. Will I have to pay for GE to manage software updates which 80% of the time fail to work and usually need GE engineer to install as I refuse to open the batteries on safety grounds.
GE have created this issue by giving diabolical service and support and now want us to pay to help them out.

smallstool Which means nothing as many over the years have found with "lifetime access/etc"

So GE want us to pay for access because they couldn't run a pissup in a brewery and ran out of cash. Thanks, but no thanks. Show me some software that actually works first and I will consider it.

TBH I'm happy to pay a small monthly fee so that the features remain in place. I do use HA/Givtcp/predbat but feel that not everyone can use these. I realise that I still use the API for Axle and IOF during the summer (if opens to sign up again).

pwdst thanks, I wasn’t aware of intelligent flux !!

wrighar

Found the Polar ESS fee's was £1.99 a month

https://www.polar-ess.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Polar-ESS-App-User-Guide.pdf

Leeshore I think I'd generally agree - a pound or two a month wouldn't be extremely offensive. Annoying and frustrating - but deal breaking? No.

But the top end of their charging was £12 a month - and we know it wouldn't stay there for long (see Netflix/Disney et al).

I'm not paying £12 a month to access kit I've already bought.

I think they need to consider tiering this.

Want just the API so you can connect to your kit? Free or £1 a month.
Want a dashboard/optimisations/big benefits? Pay more.

wrighar Can't see why unless you use a GE wallpoint. I use Rubikcube's Inverter app to input and export to the grid, and Octopus controls my zappi. GE has nothing to do with it.

Urgh, I get it, everyone pushes apps to the cloud rather than running their own infra, the costs then end up higher because things are done "in a cloud way" locking you into their infra and way of working... then you need to charge monthly toc over those ever increasing costs... think the issue is taht everything now wants to be a monthly sub. We're so far from buy it once, use it forever with so many things now - its £1 here, £2 there, £5 somewhere else... and before you know it, tis a good hundred quid a month on subscriptions to just exist. Thats why i'm against these on principle, not that I don't want to apy for things, but when everything needs a sub to function... it becomes a drain on a households finances.

TimHutchings If it is Intelligent Octopus Flux, then I think you would need the cloud access as I prsume Octopus access your kit via the API key - so if the cloud access goes so does that capability. For Intelligent Octopus Go then, no, as Octopus directly control your car or charger.

I go rid of my GE EV charger last week for that very reason

TimHutchings
I use Intelligent Octopus Flux, others use IO Go,
I also have Axle-VPP, although I assume Predbat could do that for me rather the Axle triggering.

I tend to have the web portal on/open all the time

I understand the cloud run costs... I was a Amazon Cloud Tech Authority before retiring, and costs can be 'eyewatering' for something built into 'cloud' to reduce costs...

I'm really very annoyed. Big swear words. I've had the install less than a month. I despise subscriptions and would never have bought this if i'd known at the time. At the absolute least i expect the same services as when i ordered in February for the full 15 years lifetime. If they insist on the subs they can give me a full refund or I'll see them in court.

TimHutchings Intelligent Octopus Flux would require API access.

wrighar Sorry, your post mentioned Intelligent Octopus and I assumed you meant IOG.

What about the clause in the Warranty that says something about the Inverter must remain in touch with the cloud server for the warranty to remain valid.

This an early april fools isn't it?

Without portal and the app most of us can not manage our batteries and now they want to charge for access. Plus commenting that due to falling sales they need money to run the current platform..... ARE YOU KIDING ME! They transferred 8 million to their sister company didn't they?

This is disgusting. They don't provide local control, they offer a tool to use with other hardware which needs a fair level of IT skill and ideally networking know how. The number of home assistances you can find which are open to the web for all to see is shocking.

I have the EMS device, it drops time every time i have a powercut and the only way to set it is via the web console. If the time is not set my entire setup does not function.

I use no automations. If they charge for app and portal access I may seek legal advice.

1 last comment should anyone from givenergy actually bother to read their forums. Thanks givenergy! I am moving house and really wanted to get your AIO2 and all the extra's. You just lost my custom. I suggest you sort your in house problems and start providing a quality service before trying to charge your customer base more to access products they already own bought.

https://givenergy.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/GivEnergy-UK-Product-Brochure.pdf

Page 18 people

I was wondering when this day would come. I think they should have API limits for free users and offer basic functionality on the web portal. History should be paywalled. Solar forecast, smart tariff Predbat esk, and control behind a paywall.

They are obviously testing the waters but features will be behind a paywall. Essential features have to be free.

Vestas how do we get GivTCP3 to send the heartbeat signal?

Having had a bit more of a think about this:

I'm not really bothered by the mobile App, I rarely us it, so if it went ten so what.
Web Portal I use daily, mostly just the default dashboard Powerflow view, and some times the Powergraph, running 24*7

What I do want/need is remote API access, and the My Inverter page (settings, general, software) and the Remote Control and Logs Page.

The rest of the portal I don't use anymore (smart tariffs, energy graphs, weather, solar forecast etc), great when I got the kit, but I moved on after about 6 months.

It looks quite sparce now:

I need to speak directly about an upcoming change to the software that powers your GivEnergy system. To date, it has been provided free of charge, funded by ongoing hardware sales.

Infrastructure, data storage, and operations all have ongoing monthly costs. Our products can last over 15 years, which adds up to many hundreds of pounds over their lifetime.

As our user base has grown and hardware sales have slowed, that model no longer works.

The ongoing data and software support costs were know to GE from the start. It must be assumed that those costs were included in the sale cost of the equipment over its expected life.

Who has spent that money?

Were GE a publicly listed company, share holders would be able to question the board and, even, demand changes to the board. Now that the ship is only helmed by JO there seems to be no way of steering it away from the rocks.

How about a survey to ask the owners of GE equipment how they'd like support to be improved?

Vestas v3 doesn’t expose the PV string controls (independent/one string) I have on v2.

It's all python, AFAIK, so should just be a case of finding the definition of that register in v2 and patching it into v3.

I have not had this email, what address did it dome from.?

Maybe it's an April fool but in true GE style they messaed up and sent it early?

Efpv what address did it dome from.?

noreply@givenergy.co.uk

I have really mixed feelings about this email. On the one hand I’m really frustrated, eg it’s obvious to me they were getting into a CS business (big installed base with long warranties), but didn’t plan for or scale it. Also where’s the money gone or was the kit priced incorrectly because of the prior point (I don’t feel I paid top whack compared some brands). I think a lot of these companies are big on the product, ideas and tech and forget CS is a necessity.

I have always had to pay for my car app to get remote features and API access for IOG to work. Deep down I dislike that a bit, paying forever and relying on a manufacturer being around for the lifetime. But if priced fairly there is a genuine cost to them and value for me in having it there and my subs supporting customer service and their longevity.

Sadly GE misplayed all this and now we’re grumpy for the about face and their bad planning.

An old friend once said “don’t begrudge the other man his profit” especially if you want him to continue to do business with you and still be around when you need them. This is harder when they are not helping themselves very well

Can someone screenshot and post the email please, I have not received it and I have checked spam filters etc.

Maybe this was a disgruntled employee that sent it to a subset of people? (wishful thinking).

Efpv I found it in Junk mail, - rather appropriate really

One thing that has just struck me, is that the mail is taking a survey and asking how much people would be prepared to pay for the portal. Surely that is the wrong way round? There must be an annual cost for the hosting, servers, software etc. which needs to be funded by the subscribers - if not then the thing will not make a profit.

You would have thought that that would have been done and it would have been better to say, this is the cost to host this software - would you be prepared to pay for it at that level.... Anyway, just a thought!

Still a bit unclear to me whether this affects Predbat. Does Predbat use any of the cloud APIs, or is it just using GivTCP, which isn't affected?

WinterMJ If a service is free I tend to cut them some slack. If I'm paying for it i expect the service I PAID for. And based on recent experience confidence isn't high!

alan_johnston Beat me to it. That was my thought as well!

CW

CW There must be an annual cost for the hosting, servers, software etc. which needs to be funded by the subscribers - if not then the thing will not make a profit.

You would have thought that that would have been done and it would have been better to say

Whilst I agree they should really know the cost to provide the service, as they are (or trying to be) a going concern of a business they want/need to make a profit and if they are open with their costs, how will they get people to pay more than that? Not saying it's right. Also, even if the service is provided at cost, divided by all paying members that could go up (as well as down) depending on the up take, would you want them coming back asking for more money when others stop paying for the service?

James L It can be configured to use either, so shouldnt be affected.

Stever No, but if the survey comes back and says that not enough people would subscribe at the lowest rate at least then they have an idea as to how viable the subscription model will be. If only 50% said yes to the price, what is the likelihood that they would then be prepared to pay double. I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm not sure if you just ask people what they would be prepared to pay how that will help (especially as everyone is anchored to a free service currently)

CW I agree, asking what people would be prepared to pay without any choice of options would just lead to people most likely saying they're not prepared to pay, hence them giving some (highly unrealistic, wishful thinking) suggestions. I just meant it would be unlikely for them to be open and say, look it costs us X to run this per month (without any further development) we need at least y people to pay z to run it or it gets turned off. No, they'll keep that close and we'll just find out if it implodes when they don't get enough take up and we lose it completely

Really annoyed by this. I've had my battery 1 month. It was a big investment for us. We went with a uk company on the belief that we would be better protected as a consumer. This choice has cost us extra. Now we are being told that unless we want a dumb battery we have to pay an annual tax for the privilege.
LET BE CLEAR HERE - GE ARE NOT OFFERING A PREMIUM EXTRA FEATURE, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT OTHER MANUFACTURERS OFFER FOR FREE!
I am really wishing I had bought a cheap Fox battery.
I can't believe that anyone will be buying GE products knowing that they are signing up to an unknown subscription costs. Lets be realistic, if they are happy to throw this on us now, do you think they won't increase the prices in the future?

Local access remains free, forever
You’ll always be able to manage your system over your home network. Your system can continue to function independently of cloud services, for those who want a more hands-on approach.

There's 2 things I'm puzzled about:

1. How this will work for the installer configs - will GE release docs so that anyone can configure things locally?
2. How the warranty requirement for being cloud-connected (and, presumably, firmware updates) will work?

I guess they expect all systems to still be cloud-connected for these purposes, but the 3rd-party API will be where they put the paywall. If so, I wouldn't call that "independent of cloud services".

KevinB
I’ve a new set up and I have been testing the free local access option ahead of the May changes, and I’ve discovered that my system doesn’t provide the local web dashboard that some people mention. I can log into the Wi‑Fi module at its local IP address, but the inverter itself doesn’t host any of the usual pages (inverter.html, index.html, status.html, etc.). It looks like my model only exposes the Wi‑Fi module settings, not the full local interface.
So unless I use a third‑party tool or subscribe, I won’t have access to the familiar GivEnergy dashboard after May. I’m sharing this in case others find the same thing — not every system seems to have the built‑in local dashboard, even though the Wi‑Fi module is reachable.

Sondra

Just to confirm, you have downloaded the GivEnergy App from your App Store? Then connected to your inverter from it?
Or are you using the cloud based access?

Hi, I am very worried about this. I don't use the app so I don't want to pay for something I don't use but I need to know if my Intelligent Octopus Flux still works when they have cut me off from their system?
Wish I had gone with a different tech provider 😥

MarkBuckton I am currently chatting with a youtuber who reviews renewables and we are wondering if other suppliers will be following this model soon. With increased costs to electric and AI eating up all the server power on the planet this could become the normal. Not that I agree with it, but after I calmed down last night and started chatting to others it did get me thinking!

At present my hope is free basic access, so setting manual schedules and then charged for other modules. Weather prediction, automations etc. Annoyed about api access though. That will affect my axle earnings!

Gwin You're right, the functionality currently provided has been free and is also provided by other manufacturers for "free". It is a big investment for all of us.

If the service isn't running directly on your own kit/hardware then someone has to pick up the bill, and they're not getting more money from existing users to pay for that, hence we're facing possibly/probable subscriptions.

But do you really think other cloud based solutions from the likes of Tesla/Sig (who don't provide any local access) won't look to charge at some point? If their new sales pipeline also dries up, then they too will look at alternatives to fund it, or simply shut it down. It's the danger when you lose local control and companies focus on "the cloud" to provide functionality rather than building things into the actual physical product.

MarkBuckton if my Intelligent Octopus Flux still works when they have cut me off from their system?

Highly unlikely as that uses APIs to control the system which will presumably be behind a paywall. Impossible to say conclusively without more detail but it is likely to be pay up or move tariff.

Once they get you to pay for Cloud Services, the next thing they cannot afford will be your warranty. You do realise this is the thin edge of the Wedge don't you.

Stever
I've seen mention in a few places to Sigenergy needing to " Phone Home " every 6 months or the kit bricks itself. They're now on my " Do not buy " list. I know that at the moment they seem to be flavour of the month, especially among installers, but things can shange quickly and I'd not take the risk.

Tenkaykev Its 90 days, not 6 months.

Dabz However it’s a smart business move because monthly recurring revenue is absolutely golden when it comes to selling your business

Yep, feels like one final pivot to inflate the MRR before it gets flogged off.

Tenkaykev I know that at the moment they seem to be flavour of the month, especially among installers,

So were GE once...

duplada You do realise this is the thin edge of the Wedge don't you.

Yep. While the model in isolation may not be a bad one, in conjucntion with a lack of planning, lack of transparency, etc it is a trust nightmare not to be engaged with lightly

I thought I was lucky having GE kit, my parents, Brother in law and his parents all have Huawei.

It has rubbish FusionSolar software, and last year Huawei withdrew from the UK market and sold off all unsold kit without warranties.

Luckily all there stuff is still working.

wrighar I think its all much of a muchness these days.

Its like the early days of cheap double glazing* where manufacturers came and went (installers much more) & until there's a mandatory insurance backed guarantee (not run by the industry/MCS) it'll continue to be an absolute lottery.

It also needs legislation - the CRA 2015 needs amending to make full local functionality of all installed equipment without any internet access a requirement.

*my cousin owned the biggest distributor of upvc windows/doors in Scotland at one point so I heard some stories 😉

Watcher I do have the GivEnergy app, but it has never allowed me to log in or use it, that’s a separate issue I’ve had since installation.
What I was testing today wasn’t the app, but the local web interface that some users can access directly from the inverter’s IP address. I can log into the Wi‑Fi dongle at its IP, but my inverter doesn’t host any of the local dashboard pages (like inverter.html or status.html).
So the app isn’t the problem — my hardware simply doesn’t provide the built‑in local dashboard that some people have mentioned.

This is from facebook.

NormC Thanks for sharing the graphic. It confirms that checking your system from home will remain free, but it doesn’t specify how that works on different hardware versions. I’ve tested mine and confirmed that my inverter doesn’t host any local dashboard pages, and the app has never worked for me, so I don’t currently have a way to view my system locally without the cloud.

Sondra If you have an old android phone or tablet, the Inverter Monitor app from Rubikcube (Andrew Miller) is free to download and use to monitor your system. If you want to, you could pay the one-off £10 charge which unlocks the premium version which then allows you to set up schedules to import or export.
Have a look through the link below to see how it all works then download it if you want. It's very easy to set up (I've been using it for 2 years), and if GE disappear, you can still use this to operate your system. You can even use it without an Internet connection, connected directly with the wifi dongle on the inverter.

https://givenergymonitor.wixsite.com/tutorials

NormC Neither of those lists include manual management of charge slots, SOC limits, etc.
Was the list written by a media studies graduate?

TimHutchings Brilliant, that’s helpful. My system doesn’t provide the built‑in local dashboard pages, but I can access the Wi‑Fi dongle locally, so I’ll take a look at the Inverter Monitor app as an alternative. It sounds like it might work even without the GivEnergy cloud. thanks 😊

MikeyHaz then it will go up the next year, again the next, again the next, they were the ones that put the only official control behind the cloud so blocking that access unless you start coughing up monthly is going to end up in lots of legal action against them if they are even allowed to get away with it.

Pay up or **** off and find your own solution is not a good look.

Also how is that going to work for people that use vpn's on devices or other things, their app has no local access so them saying you can check at home but not away unless you pay is complete 100% pure grade a bull****.

mrand31 that's the big question for me and loads of folk on the various Facebook forums. Most seem to expect local control to stay as-is i.e. control and not just view, but some of the stuff they've released contradicts this. Local control plus a VPN pretty much maintains what we have now (bar stats) but I'm still not convinced that's what they mean. They'll be pushing hard to get as many people to subscribe as possible, so view only wouldn't surprise me. Meanwhile, Home Assistant for the win.

duplada I not only said £0, I called them on their bullshit bait and switch tactics after implicitly advertising their own cloud/local access as free forever.

I'm currently using rubiks inverter app, which gives me live data when at home and a daily record just after midnight each day. It's actually been more accurate and reliable than access through the webportal this year... I even paid for for it... But I'm not giving GE a fucking penny after their bullshit.

NormC
And this is from their Product Brochure

Where are they legally on systems still under warranty? It was sold with lifetime access so at an absolute minimum I think they would be legally obliged to continue offering the service during warranty periods. (Our is under 6 months old and the gateway STILL isn't working during power cuts despite numerous calls and a changed bus bar).

I couldn't understand why such a long list of hardware and software would be needed. What is each bit of kit for? I am definitely against installing anything that needs additional electricity to run. I don't want anything else to maintain hardware-wise.

Mostly once ww set it up, monitor occasionally but that's it for us. Using eco mode without the smart tariff.

The paid option of Andrew Miller's Givenergy Inverter app lets you adjust some of the settings... since the givenergy.cloud portal is connecting to a local IP address I'm confused about what data they are storing and why that would be going through their systems. (I know they do automated firmware updates by that's infrequent).

The problem with warranties is that it they require the company to be in existence to honour the warranty, unless insurance backed (and all premiums paid upfront). There will not be any company to sue for not continuing to offer the service.
I guess if GivEnergy "go" we are all up s*** creek without a paddle (warranty)

What about the credit card company? Would you have any redress through them?

mikes01666 Yes. They are jointly and severally liable for the contract so if GE/installer goes bust then the CC company would have to sort things out.

Vestas
It would be interesting to see how this played out in a real situation.
Would the CC company have to take the dead kit (battery/inverter) back and install equivalent kit from ANOther manufacturer?

SteveCook You'd get a pro-rata payout based on what you paid if the manufacturer (and installer) was insolvent.

Edit to add installer - the CC company will go after them first and IME (not solar) they'll either fold or do whatever they can to make the CC company go away happy. The CC company goes after ALL their costs.

Vestas
So if CC companies go after the small domestic installers, they will all get screwed over because of GivEnergy failings?
Doesn't seem right or fair

SteveCook They're the ones the customer (and hence the CC company) has a direct contract with.

Would their liability insurance cover that?

pwdst
But there will probably be a considerable excess before insurance cuts in.

SteveCook

Vestas our installer went belly up in 2024. Interesting conundrum. As the installer has gone the only parties concerned are the CC and the customer. AFAIK there is no connect between the CC and GE.

I'm ripping out my GE system so this is not really going to affect me. Even if I was keeping my system I would not be signing up for any paid GE cloud access. Why? Because when I bout my system 4 years ago GE advertised the portal as "free forever". Now they've moved the goal posts they have lost my trust.
I'm currently getting quotes & looking at alternative systems. I need a larger Inverter & more storage so whilst my current system works fine it does not meet my current or future needs.

I’m sure none of us here want GE to fold. But, I can’t help but feel that based on other posts across this forum that we may be at a position that is the result of poor decisions within GE. I appreciate that this may be a competitive and fast changing market. But if the company is in trouble and they can’t find investor(s) then perhaps this is a telling indicator. So, if this is the case then why should existing customers finance the next steps if investor(s) can’t be persuaded ? When I bought my solar solution no one said I was investing in some kick starter capability and that I should be prepared to invest more just to maintain what I had already paid for.

Apart from poor business practice, why is GE failing? Provision of solar panels has hardly begun. In 2 years all new build will have solar.

All GE has to do is market batteries and inverters. Design and production is barely necessary.

I think installers stopped using them due to their terrible support.

I have GE kit installed in 2023, which has worked well in conjunction with solar panels.  My take on the situation is as follows:

1  We are all gradually becoming hooked on remote "cloud based" support which offers great convenience when coupled with personal devices that let us control devices in clever ways.

2  These cloud services are usually part of the sales pitch and it's easy to overlook the fact that they depend on the continuing financial prosperity of the manufacturer.  A good many suppliers have already closed or modified their support, including such giants as Google when they took over Nest?  So size and profitability is no gtee of good behaviour.

3  Other examples: my Mitsi ASHP uses MELcloud, and my Smart#1 also gets OTA support and updates from Germany / China.

What to do about the GE email?

1  I think this is a genuine way to try to maintain support for the GE kit, rather than a money-grab to boost profits.  So I believe that they need to make it self-financing.

2  In fact it is in everyone's interest that the cloud services be somewhat independent of the company for protection in exactly this kind of situation.  

3  GE could just have imposed a charge without consultation - at least they are trying to prepare the ground somewhat which I think is a sensible approach.

4  Threatening them won't help - if they go bust paying out claims no-one wins  - except the lawyers.

5  If GE fails it is possible that a 3rd party will step in - but I can't imagine them offering cloud support for free, so owners would be in the same position of needing to pay after a suffering a great deal of disruption.

6  My installer did a great job - I have no intention of chasing them, it's not their fault.

So I plan to respond as follows:

1  I am disappointed that GE former management has allowed the company to get into this situation.

2  I understand that cloud support has a cost and therefore a monthly fee may need to be imposed.

3  I would be prepared to pay a reasonable monthly fee, on the following conditions

3.1  A separate cloud business is established within the company, under a new Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) legal entity

3.2  Funding for the SPV from subscriptions should be ring-fenced and not used for other GE activities

3.3  GE should continue to support the SPV with staff and financial resources for a reasonable period until it is established

3.4  GE should take advice from professional advisers who are briefed to ensure that the charges are fair and adequate to maintain the service.

3.5  In the event that GE ceases to trade the objective should be that the SPV should be capable of continuing as a stand-alone operation or perhaps being sold as a going concern to another company.

There is also discussion about whether it should be possible to manage the equipment locally.  I can see the attractions of this for the technically minded, but the vast majority will not want to do this and I think it's a side issue - probably only 1% will be aware of or have any interest in the forums, where local control is so hotly debated as a solution.

So I think a cloud-based, paid-for solution is the way to go.  Failing that, the kit will stop working and a lot of expensive and useful hardware will be heading for the skip.

New email from Giv Software just dropped. £4.99/month for continued app and portal access.

ectoplasmosis Not happening for me.

CGoode Happening for me.

CGoode you do know that you can still access the system locally and if you already have HomeAssistant you can configure it for access when away from home, you dont really have to subscribe to monthly payments for APi access.

£4.99/month doesn't take long to pay for a PI. Home Assistant and Predbat is free

ectoplasmosis
Just got that. So, £60/year...
Octopus are paying for their API access, which may keep those customers happier.

My use of the cloud portal is typically now just grabbing the monthly solar generation figures, which I'm sure I can get in a much easier way with HA.

Question, questions...
Does "Givenergy Software" own the comissioning portal - will that allow installers to modify settings/replace kit, etc.?
(We were looking to add a second PV string - I believe that needs comissioning portal?)

I assume GE Software don't 'own' the inverter/dongle firmware, so saying that the "free tier" gives access to local control via GIVTCP is a bit cheeky.

Who, exactly, are GE Software? Which of any of the previous GE heroes/villains involved?

ectoplasmosis
"We are launching in May for a price of £4.99 per month"

they are very shortsighted, and don’t understand basic human psychology, had they priced this at £1.99 per month, they would have got 3 times more subscriber, as paying £24 per year is much less than any other additional hardware such as raspberry Pi etc but when you check £60 an year, 1 2GB Raspberry Pi 5 looks like a lucrative deal...

i already have HA with remote access, so a premium subscription was never for me.

I have HA etc and would have paid £1.99/ month, but as deepanshus post. I am not paying £4.99/month

Can't be expecting many to sign up - I think one of the EVM videos hinted at 100k installs (it's was in the 70k region when I could track it before they changed how the portal worked)
So if even a quarter subscribed that's bets part of £125k / month before we even add on whatever they will charge Octopus. Surely more than covering costs. So I reckon they are only expecting <10k subscribed.

If I'm wrong then it's going to turn out to be the most profitable arm of Givenergy (which may have been the goal all along)

SteveCook You don't need to pay anything if you use HA/GivTCP - it all runs locally which is on standard tier for free. And all those of you on Octopus tariffs - you don't need to worry either. Octopus pay for the API access so you don't need to.

cluelesscris
Thanks. I realise that with HA that I dont need to pay, but I would be happy at £1.99/month to keep my portal page data and remote access alive (for ease), but no more than £1.99

For those curious about Home Assistant but the idea of getting a raspberry pi scares them I’ve been using a Home Assistant Green device. https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/home-assistant-green?variant=54863020130683

Plug it in and you have home assistant.

Install GivTCP using the speak to the geeks excellent tutorial and you have local control in no time.

I don’t use Tailscale for external access as my internet provider doesn’t offer IPv4 addresses but I do use Cloudflared which uses a super cool tunnel that works for GNAT folk and is super secure.

Don’t let all these acronyms scare you. Plenty of YouTube videos telling you what to click and type.

Home Assistant Green
GivTCP v3
Cloudflared

Fully local. Self managed externally accessible and with history. I also run predbat but don’t dive into that straight away.

deepanshus But... 99% of their customers (e.g. my 99-year old father-in-law) have neither the willpower, nor the knowledge to run HA. And, don't point me at the STTG youtube videos, please :-)

Not paying for this, out of principle. Subscription services are pretty much the second phase of the enshittification cycle, and the sign that a company is dying.

Nice little tutorial here on how to set things up for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHSI4oTZyTI&list=PLKp2r5So-W3xSJ8o1EESvQpx9gNeBWWxH&index=1

Just in case anyone is more informed than I feel, or perhaps it is an unknown risk. If I was to not choose to subscribe to the current offering and a few months down the line chose to, would the data that I could view be all of my systems data since the beginning of my system or just be the data generated during a subscribed period? I could assume that all my data whether pre 1 May or post would be stored and so potentially available - but we know the mantra about assumption

I am no IT person, but presumably if the phone app will continue to work in local mode, is there a way to VPN into your home network/router such that the phone thinks it is in local mode - even though it is not - and the app continues to work?

hoggy whatever they will charge Octopus

Who I would assume obtained a perpetual free licence to use the API when they made GE their main supplier for inverters/batteries. Being B2B I'd assume that contract was with GE Software Ltd rather than any of the other companies. Ditto EON.

Of course that'd only include their own PV customers (where they'd installed) and not the rest of the userbase.

We'll see. Interesting times for sure.

SteveCook Some routers do have a built in vpn capability you can configure and some also support 3rd party solutions like OpenVPN. Look in your router’s user manual.

rjp
Good questions, you could respond to the email and pose them to GivEnergy Software.
Then share the answers?

GrahamShaul
Good question...ask them.

SteveCook There is a system I've just installed on my phone to do exactly what you were asking. Have a Google search for ' Airdroid '. Seems to work fine and and I've put more about it on Rubikcube's forum.

One of the senior Giv chaps who posts and helps folks on FB, (not Paul L) reckons that there will only be four of five people in Giv Software. If that's the case, even with only 10k subscribers at £4.99/month, there's a significant profit after salaries and other running costs. Even worst case, someone's pocketing a decent wedge although it's claimed to be non-profit making?

Who are the ex company bandits who are still involved?? I'm self-sufficient with Home Assistant etc now, local and remote, so I guess they can swivel. Matter of principle really.

deepanshus Yes I do but there's no point as I'm going to replace my system as soon as I get a G99 or G100 approval for a larger inverter. My current system is working OK but simply not big enough for my current or future needs.

Honestly, hope the rest of it goes under, this is nothing but extortion and since they have tried erasing all old reference material to sales they probably made changes to the EULA to add in possibility for a tiered subscription which never would have been there given how they were advertising it.

Nothing but extortion to see how much they can fleece before they shut up shop.

Haven’t seen anything about whether they will continue to provide this community forum. Have I missed that ?

So reading through the above comments, I conclude that the majority on this thread would be happier if GE Software had folded along with the other parts of the group, and turned out the lights on the servers?
That seems an unlikely conclusion to me.
Instead, we've received a clear communication from them that I find reassuring, that explains where they are and how they plan to proceed.
£5 / month is a trivial amount in the context of other common subscriptions. I know people paying Sky £100/month and ITV charges £5/month just to turn off the ads.
In any case, the majority of users are not remotely interested in HA and don't read this forum, and I suspect will happily pay a small subs to keep things running smoothly for a while longer.
GE Software may not survive of course - that's capitalism for you. No such thing as free - or if you prefer, software support is only worth what you pay for it.

It's not compulsory to pay for the Premium Tier. Their proposition in recent emails seemed to be that they will be able to save you (well, some of you at least) at least £5 per month through intelligent control, which surprise, surprise, is the same as the monthly subscription for the Premium Tier. It won't be something I'll be doing, though, as local control (via HA/GivTCP) was #1 on my wish list from the start, and will ever remain so.

Standard Tier:
Free forever.
Monitoring of your system’s current power, with the official app, while at home.
Monitoring of your system’s battery state of charge, with the official app, while at home (pre-login already available).
Controlling your inverter’s settings, like charge slots, with the official app, while at home (pre-login coming soon).
Free remote access supporting at least the above functionality, for specific hardware configurations which do not
support local control (like those with 4G dongles or unsupported hardware).
Firmware updates, if made available from other Group companies.
Third party software integration over your home network (like GivTCP).

Premium Tier:
Monthly subscription £4.99
Monitoring your system while at home and while away.
Viewing historical data, graphs, and reports.
Automation tools that save you money, like Smart Tariff.
API access (including third-party integrations via cloud).

deepanshus

"We are launching in May for a price of £4.99 per month"

No guarantees it will stay at that price. My sense is that price will continue to rise as time goes on. Hopefully that's in line with the value created - i.e. the app / portal software actually gets better over time...

26Left My sense is that price will continue to rise as time goes on

It will have to - all their other expenses will rise annually (salaries, rates, insurance etc.) - if they didn't raise it, they will eventually go out of business unless they can either find other income streams, or expand their customer base. I think the latter will be tricky if no more hardware is being made (unless of course they can/are expanding into the other countries that GE kit was sold).

For me I will probably initially not subscribe as I don't really use the web portal for much - my system demands are pretty basic. Having said that, if they enhance the app so that it has the kind of capability that Synergy or Tesla have (intelligent looking at home usage, weather forcasting etc) then I would be much more interested.

All GE need to do is keep a cloud server running. Any improvements are already being dealt with by open source or professional software developers.

norse All GE need to do is keep a cloud server running

Well .. yeah, but that costs money. So they have to set up some sort of subscription service. Then they can either go minimal service at minimal cost, or charge more and enhance the offering.

Do we believe the claim that the API was being hammered? IOF must regularly poll, since it appears they are prompt to restore settings if user changes something. (Unless they had arranged a push notification when external change was detected.) But seems that Octopus were already paying.

So back when the first poll came out I said a pound or two a month wasn't too bad - but I wasn't paying £12.

I've sat and reflected on £5 a month ... it's too high ... not paying it. Not when I have predbat functioning for me already.

There are two things I need the API for: 1) Axle VPP and 2) Getting the solar generation data out into my spreadsheet.

Well - if I have to give up 1 - so be it - it would cost me more to have the API than I'd earn. And I discovered that 2 broke a couple of weeks ago anyway and it's not worth £5 a month.

If I DIDN'T have predbat and wasn't running HA ... maybe ... perhaps ... but I'd really want to see those optimisation systems they claim to have first.

MikeyHaz 1) Axle VPP

Well - if I have to give up 1 - so be it - it would cost me more to have the API than I'd earn.

Axle are currently guaranteeing at least £10 per month, so there is a little margin still there. But since it seems that Octopus are paying for API access, maybe Axle will too ?

But what if Axle switches to import events over the summer, rather than export events? If those events happen when the sun is shining, it would be very hard to import anything while our own panels are generating. (Wind would work, of course.)

I don't see how this will work in the long term. As GivEnergy now have no plans to sell hardware anymore, there are a limited number of people with GivEnergy systems. Over time, people will either not subscribe and use local comms, their systems will fail or move away to different solutions and therefore reducing their income. The £4.99 is the thin end of the wedge seeing they Giv Software Ltd is already in debt.

I've emailed Axle asking them if they can trial not controlling the inverter via the API and just use the Smart meter data to see what was exported an bill your accordingly. Especially when Axle VPP is in Beta. Predbat and automations (or manual discharge window) could do the export.

downfield Bottom line is you trust a company which has already lied to you/run a bait & switch.

Most of us don't.

Good luck.

cbowen I've emailed Axle asking them if they can trial not controlling the inverter via the API and just use the Smart meter data to see what was exported an bill your accordingly. Especially when Axle VPP is in Beta. Predbat and automations (or manual discharge window) could do the export.

I suspect that it's easier for Axle to sell their service to the grid when they actually control the batteries. The set of users with automations reliably scheduling the export is possibly too small to give them the volume they need.

I wouldn't really want to pay GE £5 per month for the small number of times Axle would use the API. Axle might be able to negotiate a smaller fee to access the API for the 80 minutes they need around each event. Perhaps still viable if Axle was paying 80p/kWh, say ?

DD Yeh, it most likely is easier for Axle to operate this way. However, I wasn't saying not controlling inverters via the Giv API but give the option during the onboarding process to use either the Giv API or use automations, etc.

DD
Let's say, that 10000 people want the cloud service. Would that £600K per-annum sound a little bit overpriced for keeping a cloud open to 10000 people?

How much storage do 10,000 people need? 10TB?

AWS does not charge per user, so the cost depends on the specific compute and storage architecture chosen rather than the user count. For 10 TB of storage, Amazon S3 Standard pricing is approximately $230/month ($0.023/GB for the first 50 TB), with costs dropping to $12.74/month if a lifecycle policy moves older data to Glacier or Deep Archive over time.

$230 per month spread among 10,000 subscribers = $0.023 to keep the server functioning. Y'know what - round it up to 99p, then they can still have their margin of profit, and keep the .99 tradition going.

norse Indeed. Their claims of high network costs are improbable verging on egregious.

Obviously all staff costs - salaries, pensions, employer national insurance, equipment and licenses, payroll costs, office space - will also have to be covered by any subscription. There is no other source of income to cover them.
Even so they must be forecasting tiny take up if they genuinely think that will be needed just to cover costs. If they are expecting 6000-10,000 people then it would make sense given the headcount and developer salaries.
There is also the matter of existing debt.

pwdst
If they have no other source of income, pray tell what these 'salaries and pensions' are supposedly paying for? They offer no support, and what are they developing exactly?

norse Really should be down to one dev on a part-time contract and another part-timer to handle payments/etc within about 6 months. Or knowing this lot it'll be an AI doing all that - about as well as Rachel did....

Even patching existing software and maintaining existing infrastructure will require warm bodies. The sales pitch for the subscription included a bunch of extra development. You can choose to believe that will happen or you can not, that is entirely up to you.

Vestas I understand and respect your decision.
In the end it's a judgement call. I've watched EVMan's YT made just after he had visited some of his former colleagues. It is clear that previous management made some bad decisions and expanded the business too quickly, then left or were booted out - but too late to save the business.
That doesn't mean there aren't good people at the lower levels, and the level of support in 2023 when my system was installed was up with the best.
So I plan to give GE Software a chance to prove themselves and I would urge others to do likewise. It's quite a small amount relative to the overall investment that I have in GE kit.

downfield So I plan to give GE Software a chance to prove themselves and I would urge others to do likewise. It's quite a small amount relative to the overall investment that I have in GE kit.

I agree I am going to give them a chance also. I asked them a question via email regarding my Dual AIO's last night and they were very quick to respond which is encouraging.

HA is looking pretty damn good if you ask me....
Just need the Pi for remote access now that I set it all up today.

norse I'd be very surprised if this system used S3 for data storage, apart from maybe the firmware files.

At a guess, the online system (API & Portal) will need at least two or three (production, testing and development) of - a database server; a web server application for the portal; a number of services to provide the API and portal functionality - probably in an EKS cluster; back-ups, routing, firewall, load balancing and probably failover protection. It's possible some of the functionality is in Lambdas though.

With the potential number of users, I'd expect the sizing of the k8s pods, Db servers, etc. to be reasonable - the portal is pretty responsive.

There's too many unknowns to get a detailed price, but you could probably cost up a reasonable monthly overhead based on that, if you go for middle-tier sizing.

For what it's worth (very little, I warrant) I'm going to sign-up, but will work on setting up HA/predbat (on an old laptop) and the Inverter Monitor App as back-ups. In a few months, I'll either stick (knowing I have a back-up), or switch because the local methods are better. With May being free, it'll be £35 to run it to the end of the year.

Maybe it's just that I'm a software developer and I've been in a situation where the main boss made some terrible decisions and ran a good company in to the ground, but I'm working on the assumption that the problems all stemmed from the top and the main company, and I'd like to give the software lot a chance.

I've a response from Axle support who have confirmed you don't need the Giv API for Axle events.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for raising this — we're very aware of the GivEnergy situation and are actively monitoring developments.

For what it's worth, we do already support Home Assistant and local control setups alongside our VPP. You can find more info at vpp.axle.energy/landing/home-assistant. During events, users with local automation like Predbat can manually export and we'll still compensate based on smart meter data.

Regarding fully removing the cloud API requirement — that's a bigger product decision that I'll flag with the team. Your point about retaining GivEnergy users is well taken and something we're considering.

I should also note we don't currently have an account for your email address — if you'd like to sign up, you can do so at vpp.axle.energy.

Best,
The Axle Energy Team

cbowen During events, users with local automation like Predbat can manually export and we'll still compensate based on smart meter data

That's interesting

Just seen this email from Giv Software to a user, indicating that there's allegedly a plan to continue being able to (re)commission kit:

"assuming we can survive long enough" - the language they are using is laying the groundwork to cease trading before they've achieved anything they're promising. I've never seen a business use such pessimistic language to its client base at this stage before. instead the norm is to use positive language to encourage a new client base to subscribe

Dabz Agreed, it all sounds quite desperate!

I have just had a reply from axle regarding api access to GivEnergy

Thanks for flagging this. We're aware of the recent changes at GivEnergy regarding third-party API access. We're actively working to ensure continued connectivity for all our GivEnergy customers, so there's no need to take any action on your end just yet.

We'll keep you updated if anything changes that affects your participation in the programme.

Best,
The Axle Energy Team

Wonder if they are going down the octopus route

Dabz Perhaps they are being open and honest, given the present circumstances. I do not understand why folk would wish or prefer overblown Trumpian-style BS, then have them fail.

killythebid I agree, we don't want lies and Trumpian BS, but in my experience of business (some 3 decades of M&A and dealmaking) I've never once known a company speak so pessimistically during the very phase of business where they want to be building a loyal subscription base and need their internal team enthusiastic and ambitious about their plans. Ignoring the public perception, you at least want to motivate your team of devs so they don't come to work each day wondering if their hard work will have the plug pulled before making it to production.

Dabz Given the rolling clusterfuck that they've just come from, I'd say they're being surprisingly confident. 😃

Dabz I've never once known a company speak so pessimistically during the very phase of business where they want to be building a loyal subscription base

I think if they'd done anything else then people would have been saying "WTF? Company leaves us with no warranty and you guys are coining it in?". Can't see that working - even though its likely going to be the truth (coining it in).

Just catching up with this.

Seems like a tough spot for them.

I would prefer it if they would open source the application code and allow us to self host our own data.
I never like cloud based system. It creates a single point of failure and too much dependency on the company.

Designing systems that can run locally without the internet and the option for users to connect via the internet is always a better model... And more secure.

But I can imagine keeping up with app development and maintaining cloud support is a stressful business.

There are already at least three or four local only solutions

Russ Seems like a tough spot for them.

Agreed. To all those thinking this business will be a licence to print money, I would just look at the thousands of other small businesses going under as a result of the recent govt policies. Plus the GE employees concerned probably aren't managers, and therefore unfamiliar with the skills required to deal with the additional bureaucracy and administrative overheads.
Personally I'll be delighted if they do well.

downfield sounding more like a Giv exec every time you post mate. "Recent Govt policies" - sigh. I own and run two successful businesses and I know how it works - too easy to blame the govt fella.

downfield there are a number of over-lapping threads and posts which can get get very confusing. Just checked out the GE app and can see they are making seemingly useful changes though still a work-in-progress. Perhaps having raised concerns and made some plan B arrangements we should try a little patience and see what they come up with over next 2-3 weeks?
(Ducks to avoid the ninja zombies)

I was kicked out of the GE app today and thought they'd done the dirty on me early. I have now realised I can log in and get all the info as normal but before that happened I connected to their local option and it keeps booting you out! You have to enter the inverter serial number almost every time you open the app. Feels like they're trying to make the local experience as obnoxious as possible to use, to try and force you into paying the sub. I hate companies that try and bully their customers.
I know £4.99/mo is trivial for some people but for others it is not. I cancelled a subscription of the same amount earlier this month because I can't afford it any more.
Going to have to tackle setting up all the software needed on my HA Green to get this working locally. Don't have the mental bandwidth for that right now but looks like I'll have to, somehow.
Have always loathed "cloud" BS, this is always how it turns out. First I knew of it was when the installer got me to set it up on my phone. Had I known it was cloud crap only I wouldn't have bought GE in the first place. I know not everyone knows how to port forward but having that as an option for those of us that do would have been a much better solution and would have taken some pressure off their "cloud" services.
Renting a few dedicated servers, installing PVE, clustering them and carving up as necessary with fail-over does not cost what they were hinting at in their email either.
Sorry to vent, just not at all happy with this situation.

pwdst been trying hard to find , which ones are these?

deepanshus Try this one. I've been using it for over 2 years, and it does everything I want.

https://givenergymonitor.co.uk/index.html

deepanshus Basically what @TimHutchings said.

I'm going to fix an old (Android 9) tablet to the inverter case with some cheap clamp/holder simply to have it running as a backup to HA/GivTCP.

TimHutchings sorry, my bad, i thought it was about the hardware that does local control.

I already have HA working on a raspberry Pi 4 so that's all the control i need, plus i also have it available remotely.

deepanshus The solutions I was referencing-

1. GivTCP https://github.com/britkat1980/giv_tcp
2. GivEnergy-local https://github.com/cdpuk/givenergy-local
3. Monitor for GivEnergy Inverter https://givenergymonitor.co.uk

The fourth is the BBC Basic app a bunch of people use but I gather Apple may yank this from their App store.

PredBat cloud and another provider are supposedly releasing on network hardware which would interface locally and avoid GivEnergy APIs, but I didn't list those as they ultimately just use different cloud services.

pwdst the BBC basic app runs on several platforms, not just Apple.

The first two require HA - another option is to use the python modbus library directly, but requires a bit of tinkering.

downfield The cloud portal has been crap, none of the data from one graph matches with the other, consistently missing data and the reports which are supposed to pull from meter readings are off from what both home assistant AND the GE meter reading section give and also

HOW IS THE ZOOM STILL BROKE AFTER 3 YEARS OF ME COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.

and then on inverter info meter info you have this

My Pi5 arrived yesterday, set up on home assistant and have remote access.
Just need to figure out how to mount USB drives as my backup storage to HA OS, but that's a problem for another day.

oh and the app is no longer available on my device as well so unless they want to buy me a new phone because I sure as hell cant be wasting money on buying something that still works perfectly fine but I came here again to post this, this is the annual reports and the data on the portal as well.

Apparently the annual report thinks I generated more than what the string inverter is capable of and more than what doing the math on the actual meter data says for each month

Its been like this for as long as I can remember.

norse is this a way to control the system and log data?

Russ
Is Home Assistant a way of monitoring and collecting data?
Yes
Backups are only there to keep your system in place if there is a H/W failure.

norse so we can only collect data and monitor the status of the inverter. We cannot control it with something like Home assist?

Home Assistant using GivEnergy-local or GivTCP can absolutely control the inverter, as can the Monitor for GivEnergy Inverter app.

I wrote to GivEnergy Software on Monday last week, here’s my email and their reply which arrived this morning.

It’s a good reply, answers my points, and doesn’t look to be a stock answer.

In short, the only subscription offer on the table is £4.99 for the full Premium service.

My email:

Thank you for the emails about Premium tier, like many GivEnergy owners I am disappointed by what has happened but do understand the situation you are in and the need to charge.

I never use the GivEnergy app as having two inverters that share the house load, the data it gives is wrong, which is why I moved to using Home Assistant and Predbat over two years ago. I likewise never really use the portal as it doesn’t add anything for me, all of the energy graphs I need are in Home Assistant.

So with Premium I don’t see it brings any advantages to me.

I appreciate you have priced Premium based on your running costs, but £4.99 does seem high when part of the offer is future promised savings. I feel you would have been better pitching at a lower price that was more accessible to encourage takeup, and once savings were proven you could then charge more.

Having said that I don’t particularly want to see GivEnergy Software fail, and if there were an option for a nominal subscription rate, at £2 a month, maybe with API access as a benefit in return, then I would be prepared to pay. Otherwise £4.99 does’t give me anything I need and I won’t be subscribing. I suspect there are a lot of other Home Assistant users that feel the same.

Finally, I do think there are options to significantly reduce your cloud costs, in particular cloud storage, where the portal keeps an awful lot of data that is of little use. As n example, who cares what the 5 minute snapshots of string voltage and current were at 2am from 3 years ago. Even SoC is of limited use once you go back a few days.
Similarly I have over 1000 pages of remote control history on my account. Again, largely useless information.
There could be a lot of data pruning with very minimal user impact.

Regards Geoffrey

GivEnergy Software’s reply:

Hi Geoffrey,

Thanks for writing and for your suggestions. Indeed, we are making significant cost savings through reducing our cloud costs, which we are trying to do while minimising loss of functionality.

You are most justified in not paying for the Premium Tier if you would not get value for it - we do not want to ask for money from people who would not get value from the service.

You are correct that the price is high, and we wish we had the runway to do as you suggest - but unfortunately £2 per user simply would result in the closure of the software business even though it would likely result in higher uptake. If we are forced to close, that would mean no software for anyone.

In future, we hope to both reduce the cost of the Premium Tier and also potentially introduce lower tiers for users who won't want to pay £4.99.

There are four reasons why we avoided this in the short term:

One, for users who aren't familiar with advanced concepts, GivEnergy is complicated enough - a majority of people would be confused about which tier they needed, and this way, it is much easier to explain (and still quite difficult).

Two, it actually costs us roughly the same per user whether some features are used or not - either way, we store the telemetry, data and maintain the software and infrastructure, even if we arbitrarily turn off some users. That's not the case for local access - which costs us absolutely nothing beyond implementing the initial software.

Three, we are extremely resource constrained - there are only three of us now to do a job that was previously done by 40, and there are lot of aspects to the business (primarily around commercial hardware and software) that as an end user you may be unaware of. Therefore we simply don't have the time to implement multiple tiers before we run out of funds.

Four, in our EULA we specifically make provision for the Premium tier, but we do not specifically make provision for multiple tiers. Therefore we would need to get legal advice before implementing this, which we don't have the time or money for at the moment.

In the long term, we may well offer multiple tiers, but for the next 3-6 months, we need to focus on the core premium offering.

Hope that helps!

Best,
GivEnergy Software

Very candid response to be fair.
I have a feeling the not wanting to budge on the "multiple tiers" bit is more to try and clear off old debt (or at least prove to the bank it can be done) - specifically this bit
unfortunately £2 per user simply would result in the closure of the software business even though it would likely result in higher uptake.

hoggy I wonder whether with folks using givtcp etc and going for the 30s refresh which also swamps the cloud platform with more data are part of the issue 😉(for those watching in black and white the last bit was tongue and cheek) The CSV’s I pull down from the cloud now via api(not for much longer) went up to about 22M for a months data thanks to a 30s refresh rate on givtcp.

Maxwell all those external change detected log entries can't help. 😁

TX200 think they were for warranty so they could catch meddlers - seeing as that isn't an issue anymore if I were them I'd switch that off and delete them all.

Maxwell they can just discard them at ingest if they wanted. I'd be half tempted to purge all but 5 mins data from the portal - it's only faster if you've got something like HA polling - which stores it anyway - so not needed.

On first reading the email of 31st March, it read like someone had got up that day and said "Hey, I've got an idea, let's charge for the portal". And my first thought was, that won't be possible in a month.

But maybe these 3 people that are left had advance knowledge. Let's face it, it came as no surprise to many here. If they have been working on it since January, and know what they are doing, they could be in with a chance.

Data storage has a cost, but is not easy to reduce. In every database I know, deleting items from the database does not reduce the storage size, it simply marks them as deleted. To reduce the size, the database needs to be rebuilt and that usually means taking it offline, which wouldn't be popular here.

Some people will subscribe in May, but the data for everyone who doesn't subscribe needs to be kept just in case they decide to subscribe in June. It is going to be difficult to ever delete the data of non-subscribers.

Bandwidth has a cost. As long as the portal is up every working system will keep sending data every 5 minutes at least.

Im happy to pay a small amount as better to have someone keeping an eye on things
Small money to what i have spent on my set up

Rubikcube Bandwidth has a cost. As long as the portal is up every working system will keep sending data every 5 minutes at least.

And if those other "site" in other countries are still up and running, then the infrastructure (and costs) is still there...

WinterMJ
This does not change the contract because I think all contracts, warranties and guarantees become legally null and void if the company is sold, and definitely if it stops operating.
There is no longer ANY hardware support since GIV went into administration, and no obligation on future owners to resurrect it. We're fckd.

The administrator has already said they won't be able to honour any warranties.

It was on a BBC news article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn539rwe330o

Brassy Agreed - we have no support or manufacturer warranty now - perhaps the government should look at mandating that large purchases are covered by an ### insurance backed### warranty rather than just a manufacturer one which dies with the company. It's one thing spending a few hundreds of pounds on a washing machine which breaks after the manufacturer goes "pop" - it's another when the outlay runs into the £000's

geoffreycoan That's a good reply - thanks for posting.
In general I think the smart thing to do is to be positive and supportive about the GE Software initiative - EVEN IF one personally isn't able or willing to support it. Moaning about how terrible it is just discourages others from lending support and makes it more likely to fail.
I can't see why anyone would want it to fail?
It sounds to me as though they will need to recruit though if they are to maintain the service and there are only 3 staff left.
I read somewhere that there are 100k GE installations - is that likely I wonder?

I don't see why they need to keep your data if you don't subscribe after a certain period. Could it be downloaded in some way as an alternative?

Rubikcube Some people will subscribe in May, but the data for everyone who doesn't subscribe needs to be kept just in case they decide to subscribe in June. It is going to be difficult to ever delete the data of non-subscribers.

Could you freeze the existing data up to certain date but keep it accessible to all? Then start a new database for subscribers? Not sure that would help unless it's cheaper to maintain a static amount of data.

downfield I read somewhere that there are 100k GE installations - is that likely I wonder?

Yes.

Will the administrators be writing to all the customers to give us the “good” news when they finish their business? And if so will us poor non commercial customers be the bottom of their pile ?

For clarity the entity that is going to be charging for portal/remote app access is not in administration (yet) so there won't be an administrators report for them.

downfield You could store it offline, and retrieve a user's data if they subscribed - it would still cost, but less. It would probably require some delay between subscribing and going live. That would mean someone developing the software or processes to freeze it, and retrieve it. You need to cope with someone subscribing, unsubscribing, and re-subscribing. It may be do-able eventually, but I bet they couldn't just start doing it tomorrow.

It's probably not worth the effort though, as there's a lot more that affects costs than just the amount of storage needed.

It would make excellent model training data for PV output. If I were Solcast I'd be quite interested in that. Especially as they can track forecast against actual.

hoggy I doubt it'd be of much interest to Solcast - they've been around more than long enough to have already validated their algorithms & they get that data from paying customers anyway.

Maxwell Will the administrators be writing to all the customers to give us the “good” news when they finish their business?

You aren't a GE "customer" or creditor, so no they won't.

Where do I sign up for cloud access?

Vestas What about those in this community who currently have faulty equipment that needs to be repaired/replaced under warranty. Don’t they sit somewhere in the list the administrator has to deal with ?

Marren2016 This hasn't been notified by Givenergy Software yet. If you've received the email notifications from Giv regarding this whole debacle and the proposed plans going forward, then you should receive another email soon regarding how to sign up. Many of us here won't be signing up and using alternatives like Home Assistant and a couple of apps to cover our needs. The options are discussed at length here, Reddit and in the various Givenergy Facebook groups.

Maxwell there is no warranty now...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn539rwe330o

Maxwell No is the answer - unless a warranty extension was purchased directly from GE end-users have no contractual relationship with GE.

sponev That assumes you are still subscribed to receive marketing emails. Those who aren't (like me) should not receive any further emails from GE.

sponev have looked at some of the options and at the basic end (ha) the monitor app is a free and useful addition that gives some reassurance about what is going on. Then, after other issues (SSO fail and new router) In last two days, have managed to “repair” the online access by logging on to the monitor directly and using the installer app. Was met with a pile of garbage symbols on the dongle hosted site but managed to over-write them and now cloud access working ok. Experience such that I would not like to be without the visibility that seeing the data myself provides and will probably stump up the £4.99.

Giveme Home Assistant will give you 99.9% of what you need to be honest but understood if you feel more comfortable. I think the thing to realise though is that there are only three people left at Giv Software and they will be preoccupied with just keeping the portal going. I don't see them giving any assistance with failures, definitely not hardware but probably things like connection issues too. I suspect we're on our own with all of that.

Vestas good point. But from a GDPR perspective, it's a fine line between marketing and functionality in this case. I think they could contact you on the basis of the latter in this particular scenario? For anyone still on the fence regarding signing-up, I guess unsubscribing from contact emails might not be a sensible move right now. Probably best to stay on the circ list for now and then just hit "unsubscribe" at the appropriate time.

Even though I won't be signing up, I will keep an eye on what actually happens versus what they've promised.

sponev Its my understanding that the ONLY email address list GE Software have access to is the "Marketing" list which is sub/unsub from the portal. Its not a "fine line" in any way - marketing means marketing, not some other tenuous link like "functionality" - and if you think otherwise then I'm afraid you don't understand GDPR 🙂

As an aside I wonder how many people hit the unsub button after the Axle spam from a couple of years ago? They're presumably completely unaware of what's going on 😃

Vestas having run GDPR and other general data protection projects for several large companies previously, including my own, I have quite a reasonable understanding 🙂 That includes the nuances of interpretation in legal cases too. I'm not someone who will defend GE at all, quite the opposite, but this is an area where leeway would likely be exercised.

Yes, likely lots of users who are unaware of what's going on, indeed you still see the poor folks popping up on various forums even now, completely oblivious.

sponev
Would you mind giving me a link or two for the best sauce of information to aid me being able to remotely view my system, historical data, and change inverter settings.
I mostly use Givenergy app to view live solar generation and to see monthly and yearly solar generation, I don’t look at the information too granularly, but it’s nice to have an illusion that one day the system may have paid for itself and then some . I only use the portal to change settings, I haven’t needed to do this in a long time.
I don’t have any smart devices so don’t use Home Assistant.
Thanks

CW I bought my solar/battery system through Jem Energy in early 2023. I was offered and paid for a 10 year extended insurance backed guarantee - I am hoping that will cover me in the event of failure but, if like for like replacement hardware can no longer be acquired, I'm not sure how they would insert a 3rd party inverter in the system for example - is that possible?

djscott Hmmm. OK, so best for more granular control and stats access is Home Assistant but there is a moderate degree of technical knowledge needed there. For a "simple" solution for real time viewing and control look up the Inverter Monitor App by RubikCube - I think it's just for Android devices. There's also another app called something like the Inverter App (similarly) that's works with IOS and Android I believe.

Vestas Another example then of how the consumer gets shafted.

ChrisJW I am hoping that will cover me in the event of failure

I guess it depends on what the gaurantee was for, the workmanship or the hardware itself (or both)

CW Both

ChrisJW Great that you have this insurance policy.

I would suggest contacting the insurers, pointing out that GivEnergy is in administration, send a copy of the administrators statement that the warranties will not be honoured, and ask them what they (the insurance company) propose to do to ensure your insurance remains valid.

ANY failure it sounds like you could claim from on the policy, and as givenergy inverters and batteries are a closed eco system it would remain replacing both at the same time.
[There is the option of second hand kit or unused new kit via ebay etc but I doubt your insurance company would do that]

djscott This might help you
https://givenergymonitor.co.uk/

ChrisJW Who did you pay for the extended warranty - Jem Energy or GE?

I haven't received any email since the Survey feedback one - how do I actually get Premium?
My App now won't open either.

johnsherman My App now won't open either.

Go to the Portal, logout if you are already logged in and then follow the instructions to migrate to SSO. This is now mandatory in order to use the app, presumably in order to facilitate Premium when the time comes.

https://givenergy.cloud/guides/sso-migration-guide-2026.pdf

After you have migrated clear your app cache and data and then log in again.

There are lots of threads about this.

Vestas Jem

sponev
Rubikcube

Thanks.

I only have an iPhone, so I'll try the Inverter App.

I have setup a Minecraft server for my son so could try to setup Home Assistant on that, I'm not sure if this is worth it or not because if the server goes down, they’ll be historical data missing during that time, is there an easy way to avoid losing data if and when the server goes down?

Once the paid version goes live do you know if there is a way to down my data without subscribing to the paid version?

Thanks

djscott They have said that in the free version you won’t have access to the api which gives currently gives you the ability to download historical/current data. And it isn’t clear what download options there will be available in the free portal.

djscott I only have an iPhone

You are allowed to have Android devices as well as iPhones and iPads!

The app I linked to isn't a phone app.
https://givenergymonitor.co.uk/android.html

djscott an easy way to avoid losing data if and when the server goes down?

https://givenergymonitor.co.uk/transfer.html

It’s nearly the middle of May, any news on a date for the subscription?

My guess is the 26th May or they will push it out to June. I hope axle sort there issue out as well if the GE cloud goes.

Daveb01 I hope axle sort there issue out as well if the GE cloud goes

They have confirmed to me (and others here) that even if they cannot control your battery, if you export during the times the quote, you will still get credited as they get the readings from your smart meter

It has all gone very quiet. An optimist would assume that they are doing the final polish on the app and portal versions that will support the paywall. Those who are more pessimistic might assume that they have also run out of money or everyone has quit.

pwdst We are getting a couple of contingency quotations for replacement gear. Not 100% decided yet, even though we are running independently with Home Assistant and Rubik.

One of the guys we talked to suggested that some creditors are pushing to have Giv Software included in the administration as they believe funds that have been allocated there are owed to creditors. My understanding is that it's a separate entity entirely but I can imagine people wanting their pound of flesh and turning whatever screws they can. There could well be lots we don't know? It has all gone very quiet.

CW

thank you for the confirmation, so it’s just the signing up process that’s not fixed, as axle require an api from GE at the moment.

If they don’t sort it then anyone that’s not signed up and has GE kits maybe stuck if they can not set an api?

Daveb01 Not sure - but what I did was create the api and let them access the kit (now) - then removed the api.

Here is my query and their response....

Hi

Thank you for you notification of the up-coming event tomorrow. As I have GE kit I have removed any external access as once cloud access is removed I would not be in a position to adjust if required. However I plan to initiate a forced discharge to cover the period you have outlined in you mail. Will this be satisfactory, or is the only way I would be able to do this is via you controlling the kit directly?

Yes, that's absolutely fine! If you manually force a discharge during the event window, we'll pick up the export via your smart meter and credit you accordingly — no need for us to control the inverter directly.

Just make sure the discharge covers the event window we outlined in the notification and that you're exporting to the grid (not just powering your home).

Thanks for participating!

The Axle Energy Team

Does anyone know what happens if the subscription service does not start for whatever reason.

Will the app still work when at home but not away?

I am on Octopus IOF (Intelligent Octopus Flux) as many on here are. My inverter is locked out currently meaning I cannot make any changes. What happens to this is the software side of the company goes into administration or stops working? Will my inverter remain locked out but will Octopus have access? Can it be unlocked from home?

Thanks in advance to anyone more knowledgeable than me.

Toki Does anyone know what happens if the subscription service does not start for whatever reason.

GivEnergy Software Ltd enters administration given they are already in debt and have no source of income. The Cloud services will likely shut down within days of that as is standard contract terms, and certainly after the first unpaid bill.

Unless and until the version that works local only is released then I don't believe the official app will work at all. It certainly used to check in with the Cloud services when it started and as I understand it sent commands via the Cloud APIs as well. I don't use the GivEnergy app or Portal at all any more (I have actually blocked internet communication from the inverter) so I cannot comment if that has changed but I don't believe it has yet.

It would do not harm to research third party tools, for which there are many threads here, so that you have a contingency plan for this eventuality.

Toki will Octopus have access

If the Cloud API shuts down then Octopus will no longer have access. I cannot comment if it is possible to unlock the inverter locally, although I would assume this might be possible using third party tools.
I would consider seeing if Octopus would be willing to move you on to standard Flux now or at least get agreement to the principle as you may have to move extremely quickly if the software company enters administration.
If bills go unpaid without administration it is not impossible that the app and portal stop functioning with zero notice at some point in June.

pwdst

Thanks. I would like to stay on IOF for the higher rates given for export but appreciate this is a risk is the Software Ltd company does enter administration. I will contact Octopus and see if I can move at short notice. I am sure they are aware of the situation and hopefully have plans to deal with this situation. I will feedback what they say once I have spoken to them.

@Rubikcube Do you know if it would be possible to flip registers to unlock stranded inverters if the API does end up going down without notice?
How much of a disaster would that be?

I spoke to Octopus, the person I spoke to is aware of the situation but not as knowledgeable as people on here I would say.

He did say, worst case that I could move to Flux, even though it isn't available to move on to currently but given the circumstances I could. I assume everyone in the same situation would be able to. He did also say that there are a lot of people with GE on Octopus and suggested that if the software did stop, Octopus may start a subscription service themselves. No idea if he was making this up or if this would even be possible.

The issue is that without the API neither Octopus nor any other entity will have any mechanism to control the system outside the local network.
The best case for you is that the "lock" is implemented on the API and local control will just work without any changes.
Someone more knowledgeable than me will need to comment though.

The lock is done via API not inverter level. So Giv Software ceases to exist so does the lock.

You can right now already change settings locally while on IOF - it just gets changed back once they notice

That being the case the only thing to do now is research alternative backup control strategies and which tariff you would want to move to if it was no longer possible to remain on IOF.

Also I suppose it's not impossible Octopus could buy the software company if enough of their installs/customers use the kit.

hoggy

How can I change settings locally when it is locked?

I used to be able to so this, before bei g locked. Then on or arojnd the half hour mark, Octopus sent a signal and took back control. Then I could amend again, rinse and repeat.

Now it's locked, I can't see a way to do this, can you explain please?

pwdst GivEnergy Software Ltd ... have no source of income.

I think I read that Octopus are paying GE for access to the API (for IOF, presumably). Maybe that will be enough to keep that bit going.

Toki I used to be able to so this, before bei g locked. Then on or arojnd the half hour mark, Octopus sent a signal and took back control. Then I could amend again, rinse and repeat.

That's perhaps why the lock was introduced ?

Toki This would be a local tool like the Rubikcube Android app (Monitor For GivEnergy Inverter), GivEnergy-local or GivTCP on Home Assistant, the BBC Basic Inverter app (although I understand due to Apple policies this may be imminently discontinued).
There are lots and lots of threads here about these tools so I won't repeat them. The TLDR is that they communicate directly with your inverter on the local network and thus don't rely on any GivEnergy or cloud infrastructure. Since they don't use the API if the lock is at API level that status isn't relevant.

Toki I did contact Octopus about the same issue as you (IOF). Had a reply within a day, saying they were aware of the situation; that many Giv/IOF folks had contacted them; that they were investigating and would keep us informed...

Toki How can I change settings locally when it is locked?

I used to be able to so this, before bei g locked. Then on or arojnd the half hour mark, Octopus sent a signal and took back control. Then I could amend again, rinse and repeat.

The lock mechanism is in the GivEnergy portal (and app which goes via the portal).

It is the givenergy portal saying that you cannot control your inverter because Octopus on IOF is controlling it.

As others have said you can still make local changes to your inverter, there is no actual lock configured on the inverter.

If givenergy software fails then as others have said it’s likely the cloud will shutdown, Octopus won’t be able to control your inverter, the givenergy app won’t be usable, and your only control will be via local apps as has been covered on here lots of times.

But no panic, you will still be being paid the same IOF rates. You can control your inverter yourself, do a force charge in the evening, etc. Just not under Octopus control. At some point Octopus will doubtless move you

Would you want to work for a company that is going nowhere, 3 staff, and all they're doing is keeping something ticking over. Or would you prefer to find a job with better opportunities that will help progress a career.
The software side of things won't last 5 minutes on its own.

It has all to play out of course, but Octopus (with the 10s of thousands of GE systems installed by them) and many depending on the GE API to operate on Smart Tariffs, will not let a situation occur that suddenly stops all their customers systems operating. They will be watching things very closely IMHO

duplada Have Octopus reached out to customers who have had GE kit installed by them giving any indication of whether they will honour GE hardware warranties ? I believe someone else in the community has said EON have told their customers they will be supporting them in the event of a HW failure ?

Maxwell They don't have a choice. CRA 2015 means they're on the hook for warranties - at least for 6 years, more if they upsold an extended warranty like my installer.

Vestas Is that covered by this section ?

And is there any difference between say Octopus installing GE kit and the plethora of small independent installers who have installed GE kit.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/30

Maxwell I have no idea if Octopus have contacted their customers yet, I'm not one of them.

I expect them to react though, when the mist clears over the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in.

Maxwell Is that covered by this section ?

No.

Goods like these are expected to have a reasonable lifespan, normally considered to be 6 years and the end-user may make a claim against the retailer based on that.

Obviously in this instance if the installer (retailer) upsold a (GE) warranty to 10 years and were paid for it then they can't claim that the goods were never expected to last that long as nobody sells warranties on that basis.

And is there any difference between say Octopus installing GE kit and the plethora of small independent installers who have installed GE kit.

Octopus are less likely to "phoenix" the business, which I'm pretty sure is what most small/medium installers will do.

duplada Octopus (with the 10s of thousands of GE systems installed by them) and many depending on the GE API to operate on Smart Tariffs, will not let a situation occur that suddenly stops all their customers systems operating.

I think they'll probably just send out a small box (like the Octopus Mini) except it'll control the GE inverter via the GivTCP library/Octopus app.

They'd have to be clinically insane to buy Givenergy Software Ltd. Quite apart from the shonky software, just think about the regulatory issues surrounding controlling access to another energy companies customers low-carbon assets - EON would throw a wobbly (rightly) for a start.

Much simpler/cheaper to supply a cheap box where they control the hardware and the software rather than buying a declining/defunct company with all the associated history/issues/grudges. Edit - and doing it this way means they only support their own customers, rather than the whole installed base.

Vestas Yes, all good points that you make, I just thought they can't afford to do nothing as they probably sold more systems then anyone else, and it would not be a good look or situation for them.

Vestas I wonder how many installers have actually written to their customers to say don’t panic as they will deal with any warranty issues. (where the installer is still in business)

Maxwell I emailed my installer who said they will not be honouring any warranty. There was a 12 months insurance plan taken out at time of installation which has now expired.
Is this something I should fight?

Maxwell I'd think most of them would be keeping a low profile and hoping the customers don't notice.

There's no end of chancers offering/spamming "support" to GE users, which basically means they'll rip it out and replace with whatever makes them most money.

Marren2016 They are liable for at least 6 years.

Marren2016 Is this something I should fight?

If it's working imo no.

If and when it stops working, you have to make a judgement call on if you want to try and enforce their support.

That will likely involve small claims court and your energy and time. That's a judgement call if you think you can go through that, and the company you are trying to get to honour it will do so...

M_J and the company you are trying to get to honour it will do so

This is key to the whole process. If they fold/phoenix their company once you take action then you've done your money not only for the install but for the (admittedly small) court filing fee.

I'm confident my installer can't do that but most will fold/phoenix.

I paid by Credit Card 6 years ago but no longer have any CC receipts/statements.
Does that mean I won't be able to pursue the Credit Card company if I have a failure?

John_Bennion paid by Credit Card 6 years ago but no longer have any CC receipts/statements.

I think if that was me I would be very happy that the system has worked for 6 years as a fair time.

Getting 10 years is great, so you might be lucky...

hoggy But not GivHome: that is truly local (doesn't use Giv Cloud or their API)

John_Bennion The Credit Card Company's liability covers the first 6 years (Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act) in the UK except Scotland, so if you have passed that time elapsed, having the receipts won't help you. It is 5 years in Scotland, I think.

Hypothetical question.
Assume Giv Software gets the subscription service at 4.99 a month up and running.
Assume you subscribe to the service.
Assume after 6 months it goes bust and collapses, no further access.
Would you claim back the 29.94 from your card company (under section 75)?

I definitely would as 6 months is useless, just defers finding another solution.

Rubikcube Would you claim back the 29.94 from your card company (under section 75)?

Without wishing to split hairs (but I will anyway 😃 ) a S 75 claim can only be made for items costing more than £100 and less than £30,000

Rubikcube There's nothing to claim back. You paid 6 x 4.99 for six months access. You got 6 months access.

You have no claim.

This is of course in addition to what CW said....

Rubikcube On a related point. If you got abducted by Aliens tomorrow how would all those customers with your paid for app get support 😉

Maxwell On a related point. If you got abducted by Aliens tomorrow how would all those customers with your paid for app get support 😉

Consciousness and Telepathy Obviously. 😃

Rubikcube No, you would not be able to. The Act only applies as said above for an item between £100 and £30k. One can try a clawback with a credit card company, but only normally within 30 days of purchase.

JayC68 well no, but neither does a bunch of other local stuff kicking around (including my own)

killythebid
Thanks.

You are all so right.

I think the purpose of joint and several liability (in the CCA 1975) has been lost over time.

Back in 1975, it was never envisaged that you would be able to buy fake goods from an ebay scammer using a credit card. That's what cheques were for! 🙂

The intent was that ordinary people couldn't accept credit cards, only financially sound businesses approved by a bank could accept card payments. Because the bank approves a business, then the bank carries liability for its decision. If the bank approved a business that went bust, then the bank was liable for any losses incurred by customers, because the banks decision was in error.

In deciding to allow Giv Software to accept card payments, the payment processor will look at financial liability. If customers cannot claim refunds, then the banks are not taking on any risk. This IMHO is undermining the integrity of card payment systems.

I am not sure what you would be claiming for. GivEnergy Software would be selling you monthly access to a service. In your scenario you would have paid for six months of that service, and received six months of that service.
I cannot see how the hypothetical failure of GivEnergy Software would give rise to any Section 75 claims for the subscription fees that you might have paid prior to then.
I can certainly understand how claims could be brought against the initial purchase and install of the system.

Rubikcube just defers finding another solution.

Or gives you time to find/implement another solution.

I think the subscription was also based on a promise of software enhancements, which they wouldn't have fulfilled. (Though if I understood the administrators report, they had already burned through a lot of money failing to enhance the software.)

Rubikcube Your argument is pretty much identical to the one banks have been making for 30 years to repeal section 75.

They are in fact right, but so far no govt has chosen to/been paid enough to do what the banks want. Long may that last.

S75 is about the only thing in UK consumer law which works. The reason it works is because the banks/card issuers come down like a ton of bricks on merchants who ignore everything else. They recover their costs from the merchant which means a £200 claim could cost the merchant more like £2k once the bank/CC company are done.

Nothing else works because it requires the consumer to either submit to an arbitrator (usually industry funded, so not impartial) or take things to the small claims track.

Just heard back from GE Software about their new software/paid for service:
_ "we'll be sending out a link to join within this month of May. We're targeting a release date of Tuesday 26th, and we'll circulate an email with more detail on that date._"

...hmmmm, we will see!

Currently I have Monitor for Android up and running on 'hot standby' in case the GE Cloud software does have the plug pulled. Monitor works well - see comparison below Vs Wonder Watt and current native GE scheduler:

https://homeenergyefficiency-reallife.co.uk/solar-12-wonder-watt-and-monitor-scheduling-with-an-uncertain-future-for-givenergy/

I found it helpful to set up & understand Monitor with the GE Cloud portal in place - you can see the various inverter registers updated by Monitor. £10, a 2 or 3 hours and an old phone seemed like a reasonable premium for what I see as an insurance policy.

daveharding100 As far as I am concerned the MfA (as I call it!) is perfect and Andrew (the owner/software keeper) responds so rapidly to queries and requests for improvements that I can see it being a super alternative to GE app.
he has a community chat site as well: https://forum.givenergymonitor.co.uk/

daveharding100 Also his support site is excellent: https://givenergymonitor.co.uk/index.html

daveharding100 Incidentally your summary of the three systems is excellent! - very clear and helpful for others

Where the official GivEnergy app will succeed or fail is the tariff automation with solar forecasting. Doing what PredBat does but lower friction for non techical users.

daveharding100 Quite an interesting read. Though one observation: in the "Comparison of how they work" table, at the last entry, you assert that givenergy native system "cannot schedule higher battery reserve% in daytime ECO to ensure enough charge for peak time". I'd argue that you can. In fact, using what you describe as the battery discharge bug.

On my system, at least, (hybrid gen-3) the minimum discharge level is active during the timed window, even if export is not enabled. You can use this undocumented behaviour to implement a timed reserve. Of course, it may be firmware-specific.

DD Could you elaborate on this please?

ectoplasmosis Suppose I set one of the discharge windows as 2pm to 4pm with a minimum of 50%.
a) if I enable the timed export, then at 2pm it will start exporting, and if the SoC falls to 50% the battery will stop discharging (completely) until 4pm.
b) if I leave the timed export flag off, then it will continue in eco mode from 2pm, but again, if the SoC falls below 50% before 4pm, the battery will stop discharging in the same way.

I also received the email and I have said that I would be prepared to pay the £5 monthly to have local and remote access.
I realise that appears naive but, after working as a Programmer then finishing as a Systems Engineer after 40 years, I decided on retirement in 2006, that I would just USE technology rather than bothering with the underlying systems.
I purchased my GivEnergy battery system 5 years ago and added an extra battery in late 2024.

I use the GE software daily in the summer to allow me to decide when to charge my EV from my Solar PV and would probably get by with the “Free” offering but experience has confirmed my view that TANSTAAFL, so as I would prefer to use someone else’s expertise (if not too expensive) rather than having to go back to school to learn how to use API , including communication with the Inverter and the batteries.

P.S. During summer months, my only input from the Grid is to charge my EV when there has been insufficient sunlight in the preceding weeks to “fill” it.

Predbat doesn't require you to learn APIs, or even program, although some yaml configuration is very likely. Once we got everything set up I mostly just let it get on with everything and do its thing.
Buy a Home Assistant Green, setup Solcast, GivTCP and PredBat and have it manage your charging and batteries.
There is a good chance if you have any other smart home stuff that a high percentage of it will also be compatible.

GeoffEvans charge my EV from my Solar PV

I doubt there are many on here that charge an EV from solar PV. Solar energy costs 12p per unit (with Octopus Outgoing), whereas night-time electricity costs 7p - 9p on an EV tariff.

Rubikcube
Overnight I am charging the EV and topping up the GE battery at IOG rate (4.5p/kWh for me) then running on grid until the end of the cheap rate (5:30am). Then GE Battery runs the house until the sun comes up. Solar tops up GE battery then exports at 12p. IOG might schedule extra on the fly EV charge slots but they just get ignored by my EV and the solar keeps being exported instead of charging the EV.

Rubikcube during the summer, I first charge my GE to 70% (15 kWh, enough for 1 day’s use) from Solar PV and then charge my EV for the rest of the day.
At midnight, if the battery level has dropped below 40% in the summer or 70% in the winter then I charge it overnight at 3.99p per kWh (EON EV rate)
I don’t understand the reference to Solar energy costing 12p per unit.
Could someone explain please?
P.S. I have another 10 years FIT for the PV system - could I take advantage of this 12p export rate? If so, how ?

GeoffEvans I don’t understand the reference to Solar energy costing 12p per unit.

I read that to mean, if you can export excess solar at 12p/kWh if you are charging the car instead you are losing that 12p rate - hence the "cost"

GeoffEvans If you’re on FIT the only way to benefit from the 12p export tariff is to opt out of the “Deemed Export” element of the FIT agreement. Depending on who the FIT contract is with will determine how easy it is to do. Mine is with Scottish Power and it took 18 months!

ChrisRowe Also if you have a smart meter then you're supposed to opt out anyway as your export can now be metered.

If you are on deemed export then you are getting paid for it whether you charge the car or export it, so it changes the rules a bit.

ChrisRowe Thanks Chris - my FIT contract is with Scottish Power as well !!

pwdst I hadn’t factored that in - my Self Consumption has been 85% over the last month or so, so I’m probably getting close to 12p per unit on actual exported energy anyway.

Premium subscription has launched.
Programming is to the standard we have come to expect from GivEnergy.
Wait until 25th June to find out how they will actually collect money from subscribers.

CW yes, lot of people fail to realise this. The overnight cost of charging the car is 7p and if you are using solar you are 5p per unit out of pocket. Every little helps :-)

Rubikcube So I see. The phone App updated and looks different as free access today (26/05/26) and the PC dashboard keeps asking if i want to sign up for monthly payments and is effectively bared from use.

I am still think I will see how I go without cloud access and use the local Givenergy App and your excellent App. The only down side for me is not having access to historical data but if that becomes a pain I can g down the Home Assist route with a simlple local dashboard and collection of data.

Just seen my app says need premium to access. Also desktop app on home wifi say 'requires premium' when I click on any menu option. !! It says standard plan is active, how do I now get Local control and battery monitoring without upgrading ?

deepanshus Yes, that is why I installed a zappi - as and when export prices come down to be closer to import prices, I will adjust the zappi (and eddi) to charge from solar.... until then I will export

deepanshus

True but it i not always about money. I occasionally enjoy charging the car from our own generation and driving around on our own solar generated energy.

For me just now my overnight rate (6 hours duration) is 2.99p and the export rate is 16.5p from EON. My SEG ends at the end of June and the next year is going to be 6p export as I understand it so not nearly as good.

Right now due to the price of oil (oil boiler for us no mains gas where I am) I am using our Eddi solar diverter to create hot water. Hopefully we will be on a heat pump before the end of the summer.

IJKIJK You need to update your App on the phone and/or signout then in again. That is what I did.

Thanks. Worked for me.

Got a different looking app now, but the old graphic works and I am connected

IJKIJK You need to upgrade the app, I add the same issue but after upgrade I get the basic control back

IJKIJK

Just updated the app and phone and desktop working ok - shows I am a Premium user although not subscribed ! Or is everyone a Premium user until paywall set up ?

IJKIJK Are you an Axle customer?

CW
No - says Premium plan active, dont recall clicking on anything and not set up any payment info.. will see what happens

IJKIJK In the email it said that -

Existing automations such as the API will continue for a one-week grace period to allow you a chance to sign up.

The easiest way to do that was probably to give everyone a week of Premium for free. If you check next Wednesday you will probably be a Standard user.

Just updated App, cleared cache and re-logged in.
Local access only (free version).
Initial impression.
'Inverters' constantly displayed is annoying as it uses up valuable screen space. Identify your inverter's fixed IP address successfully and these should disaappear?
They've retained the familiar GE circle display which is reassuring. Some settings were awry until I cleared cache. Now OK.
I rather like the 'Buy', 'Sell', 'Use' display. My settings were transferred over seamlessly and accurately from the old App. Whether they work tonight yet to be seen!
I miss the Quick Settings facility - probably the most used feature for me. It was just so simple to use and never let me down.
I plan to use a combination of Rubik's app and Home Assistant for the moment to let things settle down before deciding whether to subscribe.
As long as it works then an in initial 8/10 from me.

Would like the 4 bottom select icons back...

I didn't receive any email about all this.
I updated the app just now. Will my battery still charge from octopus intelligent go tariff between 11:30pm and 5.30am? Or do I need to set times again?

Do we have to reset the times to charge or is this bottom section something else?

Can someone please explain that the only function I really use is changing the time the battery is charged from the grid is now behind a paywall? I thought all the basic stuff could still be accessed and on reading the FAQ's seems that this has now changed and non of the basic functionality can be accessed form the computer without paying for it. Thanks

Looks like the time settings are still set correctly

DocD Makes you wonder how they couldn’t manage to get this to reflect in the one new feature they foisted onto us…

pwdst

Just looked again on desktop and I'm now on Standard Tier

Sorry I am a bit dim - what benefit will Axle Energy give us and at what cost - apart from £10/month and free GivEnergy premium?

For info, I have 12 x 400w panels and a 9.5kw battery. On a day like today, that charges during the day and drains overnight. The system exports to the grid when the battery is full. My supplier is Octopus and I dont have an EV to charge.

Axle Energy's website says 'Help the grid and turn your battery into an income stream' but my battery already saves me money - I must be missing something.

I hope the automation thing they are touting is better than whatever the current thing that's available in the Web dashboard.

Count No you can adjust your recharge times in the free version of the Givenergy app. Alternatively get rubikubes app for android phones and cough up the one time premium access charge of £10.

ChrisJW Well you would be getting £1/kwH to export during an event. If your inverter can export at 5kW then an hour would give you £5. You currently get a minumum of £10 per month and that is on top of the SEG rate

CW My tiny brain cant do the maths to judge - but I do know that when daytime conditions dont allow a full charge, I charge cheaply overnight and run it down during the day to avoid higher import rates. I would not have any spare capacity to export to Axle.

ChrisJW You could set the system to charge beforehand at your standard day rate & then export it again during the Event. At £1/kwH you will still be quids in.

Beebod Yes I see.

Thinking about this further, for an Axle event, the key question is not “does exported energy have value?” - it clearly does. The question is whether Axle causes me to export energy that I later need to buy back.

Even then, the margin is likely strong. If Axle pays £1/kWh, and Octopus still records the export at 12p/kWh (???), the gross income could be around £1.12/kWh exported during an event. Even if I later recharge the battery from Agile at, say, 10p-25p/kWh plus losses, that is still usually a very healthy spread.

My Gen 1 GIV-HY3.6 inverter is the limiting factor. At roughly 3.6kW maximum AC output, a one-hour event might only export up to about 3.6kWh, depending on state of charge and house load. That would be roughly £3.60 Axle reward, plus normal export credit if metered by Octopus. The £10/month minimum (plus £5 Premium saving) is therefore particularly valuable in quiet months.

This all assumes that Axle dont charge a subscription, dont reduce the £10/m and £1/kWh, and/or dont remove the £5/m Premium saving any time soon.

I've taken the plunge myself, I have 7.5p overnight import rates, and also worry about low battery on a winters evening, but it looks like you get notification of event, so I can fully charge the battery at my daily rate (25p/kwh) and then export to Axle at £1/kwh - I may be missing something here, but feels like a win win!

IJKIJK
You're not alone in being bounced back from premium to standard. GE - what else should we expect?!??!?

Iguana Yeah, I think I will take this up - you can cancel anytime, say if their rates change to something less favourable (noting that it's in Beta so likely to be attractively priced at the moment), and you can opt out of individual events if you want. Axle's virtual assistant is quite good but I have sent a couple of final questions to their support team, partly because I want the answers - but also to test their responsiveness.

Well the app is a bit worse than the last one, but now I'm paying for it so yay for enshitification.

So, when you sign up for Axle does that mean that Axle are controlling your battery ? If so then does it depend on how they have control as to whether you would be locked out of your inverter if GE software went into administration ?

I can't even check how much energy has travelled through the inverter, IE all graphs are behind a paywall.

They said the paywall was for external monitoring and control.
So they've lied?

I find it bad form that they have made changes such that your existing app warns you that you need a subscription to now use the app but when you visit the App Store (iOS) the only option you get is to open your existing app. There should be a clear second app on the store for non premium customers.

Maxwell axle offer full-service and event-only modes. The lock is at the API level - if the server goes away, there's no API to lock.

At least it’s not the hideous green any more.

Everything is painfully slow. Doesn’t seem to have any local caching so every navigation requires a reconnection to the inverter.

Inverter settings button in the navigation doesn’t seem to work for me.

Direct Control tab is a proper mess.

Avenir Agreed.
I can't wait until I can ditch my system & the software. I'm just wating for another re-quote for an alternative system.
On the plus side I may have found a taker for my existing Inverter & possibly my batteries as well. A friend has expressed an interest as his Gen2 3.6kW hybrid doesn't want to charge up overnight - & that's after he got a replacement inverter from Giv just before they went under.
The biggest problem will be finding anyone who is willing to take on the installation of my old kit (which is working fine) in a new location. Plus, his inverter & 5.6kW battery is in his loft! Can't help thinking he'd be better off re-locating the inverter & battery to his detached garage which will cost more but would be far safer.

This new app is appalling. Not even basic usage data, What have i generated today? what have i exported? these aren't advanced features these are the basics. You spend thousands on a solar installation with batteries and this is what they give you. It's just crap.

Is it possible to see the Percentage of Battery Charge now on the app without paying for it?

I still have the 4 circles solar, grid, discharge etc. but battery percentage is missing.

Thanks

DD Thanks. It almost sounds to good not to use. What’s the catch ?

I've signed up to axle and now I have full control again.
Do axle let you know in advance when a export event will take place or is it totally automated these days? I used to use to do it manually.

On a different note:

Is my 3kw array clipping at 2.5kw?

John_Bennion
Hit the hamburger top left corner, select from list.

Marren2016 You should get an email notification about events.

Marren2016 Is my 3kw array clipping at 2.5kw?

Clipping would usually have a flat top. Remember that PV generation tends to fall with rising temperature.

AK I’ve found if you go to the web page it does show today’s data, just not in the app. It’s there but they’ve chosen to make it difficult to get to, presumably in the hope that we’ll pay them.

All, ALL, I do is set charge and discharge times and the levels for final capacity, and only do it when local. I can't now do anything. They are just boxes which do what they like. Anybody know if there's a market for secondhand invertor and batteries?

JeffBelringer

Can still do this on the Inverter Settings screen

I can get 3300watts peak power onj a good day, so the heat is causing me to lose 25% of their output, in England. That's wild.

I've had numerous issues with batteries going out of sync and find it so annoying that I have to use a third party app (which is brilliant) to tell me the batteries are performing correctly.
So GE have truly sunk to new depths.

John_Bennion It's there. I agree it needs to be made bigger.

Looks like if your with Octopus & on tariff IOG, you also get free access to GE Premium?

Daveb01 I think I had heard that for IOF

DD yeah IOF makes more sense as they'd be controlling the inverter! Maybe just a typo.

Yup sorry my mistake IOF

I'm on IOG and don't get premium access

killythebid What is rubikubes app on andriod called please?

Twiggy https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.rubikcube.invertermonitor

Just a rip off of £5pm for something one already had., Move to different suppliers and manufacturers, Spread the word on the internet. If sales and reputation drop software will re appear

AlanHynd you're going to have to spend thousands of pounds to save £60 per year, hardware sales are no more for givenergy.

arczi19 predbat will cost £100 per year, while the homeassistant on Raspberry Pi will come out cheaper. The cost will be recovered in 1 year itself.

only catch is that HA is a bit technical and you need to have the acumen for it.

I think Marren 2016 has hit the nail on the head. "you're going to have to spend thousands of pounds to save £60 per year, hardware sales are no more for givenergy"

Unless you are techie minded and can use an alternative method to control your battery then its just a £5 per month 'surcharge'. Sure we can all call it a rip off (I do). But the monthly cost is small enough to swallow and not anywhere near large enough to make any sence of changing your battery.

Why would I ever consider trashing a £6 grand battery system, to pay out £6 grand for a different system just to save £5 per month.

I will see over the coming (free trial) month if I need to keep subscribing. If I do, then I will probably go the Axel route and sign up with them.

To be honest I hope the introduction of these monthly fees is enough for the software team to survive. If its not then the vast majority of Givenergy battery owners will be up the proverbial creek.

QPRfan I agree broadly with what you say it is not cost effective to rip out a working system and replace witha different manufacturer.
I will wait until the hardware goes bang and can't be fixed or when the investment has been paid off consider replacement at some point.

I don't think, though, that the vast majority of Givenergy battery owners will be up the proverbial creek, as you put it. Most customers particularly those who do not do anything fancy with their system in terms of daily forced charging and export etc. will be just fine and can use other apps to provide information, such as Rubicubes android app. My brother for instance does not pay any attention to his system from one month to the next.

My own plans are to see how I go with the free Givenergy app and Rubicubes (which is excellent BTW). I also have the alternative app from Tuya to control and monitor my Givenergy smart plugs. The only downside presently is missing historical data and reporting.

There is probably quite a lot of former customers who have yet to realise that Givenergy have gone into administration.

Ortwin Ditto. I've just got the minuscule graphic which, even with glasses on, I can hardly read the numbers, & the battery schedule below it. Pretty useless as an App which I guess was their intention to force you to pay the subscription.

CGoode Ditto. I've just got the minuscule graphic which, even with glasses on, I can hardly read the numbers, & the battery schedule below it. Pretty useless as an App which I guess was their intention to force you to pay the subscription.

premium@givenergy.co.uk with "Feedback" in the subject line will do more good than posting in this backwater 🙂

killythebid Hello! Are you aware of any guides on this forum that can help non-expert owners adjust settings without the new Premium subscription?
For example, enabling "Eco mode", setting charging and discharging times, Winter conditioning etc. These were previously all under Settings - Inverter but now inaccessible without a paid sub.

I believe Direct Control allows you to manage these but the parameters etc here are very cryptic for those of us who are not expert users.

o1975 Read the forums.

All been done to death in March/April.

The forum has a pretty good search capability to be honest, I'm rubbish at tech, but have found a lot of help by just searching for some key words, yes you can get a load of results, but it's worth taking time and reading through the results - you should then find what you need.

Like all forums, there is usually a core group of experts and then everyone else, I certainly fall into the latter, but we can help ourselves by using the search function and also using the Givenergy SW team for any help with the app etc.
email premium@givenergy.co.uk with “Feedback” in the subject line

Vestas that doesn't seem fair - we've only just seen the direct control page on the new app.

Maxwell For IOS, delete the app from your device then install it again - this worked for me on my iPad and I can now see the new app.
However, I don’t understand why the simple interface of the original version of the app (including the four icons at the bottom of the home page) has been changed to a more complicated, less useful, one. I think that many of us would prefer to be able to opt for the old version. (I have re-installed the app on my iPad but not on the ancient iPhone that I use for simple monitoring and, for ME, the original version is preferable - it does everything that I want for day to day management of the system)

o1975 If you have a secondary monitoring device (mine is an ancient iPhone with no SIM) and do NOT re-install the app on it then after deleting and re-installing on your primary monitoring device, the old version should now work on your secondary monitoring device. Worked fine for me 😀

o1975 I believe Direct Control allows you to manage these but the parameters etc here are very cryptic for those of us who are not expert users.

The settings are presented in a rather ad-hoc fashion - I see they are in numerical order, but that's not a terribly logical order.

If it's still working for you, I suggest it's easier to learn how things work on the remote control page on the portal. That groups them much more logically. There was a series of posts a long time ago which went through describing them:
https://community.givenergy.cloud/d/3650-understanding-the-settings-on-your-app-and-portal/4

Marren2016 It isn't just the temperature. On a warm day the air is not as clear.

nophead really, I didn't know this why would the air not be as clear because it's warm?

GeoffEvans I should be careful what I wish for as the stupid app has auto updated and it won’t connect to the inverter when you vpn back to the inverter’s subnet. I am not an app developer but would welcome input from someone who is. So if when using iOS the phone has vpn enabled how does the app not see the ip subnet that the vpn breaks out onto ?

Although I see that ge have carefully worded their local control bit.

o1975 You can do the basics just like you used to from the PC browser dashboard. Bring up the inverter card and select settings. It's no different from before the move to free/premium.

The alternative is to use rubikcube's android app and make a one off payment for full access.

Vestas In short - you can have free access and let us control your battery etc or pay a monthly fee.

Posted on 31st March, before GE went into administration, that statement was absolutely spot on.

People should read what you post and consider the bigger picture.

Rubikcube Original was 11 March (nuclear option thread) when it was becoming very obvious GE Ltd were going bust.

I got the company wrong though, Axle instead of Powerdog 😃

Its the way ALL of these PV companies will go and is perfectly suited to the UK's rentier economy. After all why make anything when you can make more money from being a worthless middleman charging people to use something they already own? Its the way all of the rest of the economy in the UK "works" after all.

DD sounds like a neat solution that you have discovered...
...if only GE would document it and provide examples of how to use their system.

Atkinstagram Should be available on the App as well (it is on android). If you go to the hamburger (3 lines at top left on the home dashboard) you can select 'Energy graph' which gives the same info as was previously available so you can see how much you've generated, exported, used etc per day.

Marren2016 I think it is because warm air holds more moisture. The sky certainly looks more hazy when it is hot to me.

nophead On the hotter days the temperature on the solar panels increase and alas the efficiency of the the panels drop. Hotter panels means lower voltage which reduces output power.

Geekery details linked below

https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/16/23/10566?utm_source=copilot.com

Yes I know that but there is also less incident sun.

The new app was taking to long to load so I uninstalled it and got the old APK from apkpure.com and it works no problem.
While I was at APK I noticed they had just released a newer app but I haven't tested it.
The old app is perfect.

JD1975 Afraid not, or at least on iPhone - takes me to the "Requires a Premium Account" page.

Atkinstagram I signed up to axle last week so this might be why my old app is working

Rubikcube I have acquired an android device and installed the Inverter Monitor which is very simple to use except for one point - the battery colour is Blue but it is not easy to tell, at a distance, whether it is charging or discharging. Is there any setting that can be changed to allow one colour for charging and a different one for discharging ?

GeoffEvans

If the battery is charging (consuming power) it will be on the right, and if it is discharging (supplying power) it will be on the left. Same with the grid (red) for exporting/importing.
Also the legend tells you what is happening.

I am a bit of a lazy bugger, so haven't bothered to read all 411 posts in this thread, but just to chuck my two pennies worth in.
GE, in their email stated:

Atkinstagram As our user base has grown and hardware sales have slowed

which I find a bit of a joke.
When I had my system installed in 2021, a couple of my neighbours, who had solar panels only, contacted GE to look at the options for retrofitting battery/inverter.
The response from GE was direct and to the point, i.e. the cost of batteries was rising and making it uneconomical for them. Neither neighbour has heard a word from them, since.

Something smells iffy from where I'm standing.

I wonder if Elon secretly bought them out to put them under.