I am looking to purchase a givenergy system
Givenergy hybrid 5
Givenergy 9.5 battery
16 395w panels
I know it’s an on grid system but Is it possible to setup to be able to use in the event of a powercut? I have been told by the installer it’s not possible to do.
I was also thinking of getting an Eddi but believe givenergy maybe bringing out there own version.
Thanks
Mark
The GE HY5 inverter should have an EPS output. Emergency Power Something... 🙂
But it basically means that your inverter is capable of powering a socket or 2 or a light bulb in case of a powercut. It can not power you whole house through the normal circuits, as your inverter is grid tied.
mark8par
I have 20 panels with hybrid 5 & 3 x 8.2kw batteries
Yes, EPS (Emergency Power Supply) can be installed and is good idea. Its a standard feature on the hybrid inverter. It can power 2,6kw/3.6kw (mine is Gen1 2.6kw .. I believe Gen 2 can do 3.6kw)... so much more than just a "socket or 2 or a light bulb"
https://www.givenergy.co.uk/pdf/Version%202.0/Hybrid%20Inverter%20Gen%202.pdf
You need to look at your current wiring to decide the best method of achieving it.
https://kb.givenergy.cloud/assets/EPS%20Configuration%20v2.pdf
Note earthing requirements
For myself i'm removing ashp from the EPS protection.
installing a manual changeover switch so I manually turn off all high draw items such as electric cooker, immersion heater prior to changeover .......and they cannot/must not be used during power cut. Too much power drawn is likely to trip the inverter and more seriously could even damage it I believe.
You could also install an extra socket and emergency light that is permanently on eps and not requiring the manual changeover. Useful in case trips when you're out to keep some critical items powered.
3.6kw goes a long way... if the batteries are full & recharging and should be able to do a lot of led lights, tv, laptops, fridge/freezer etc.
but not electric heating, electric cooker, kettles. So depending on your options (especially if gas used for cooking/heating and perhaps if woodburner for heat) it can be sufficient
With careful management may do microwave?
May be worth installing a 2nd battery - vat free with initial installation alongside solar panels afaik?
My experience was that my installer also had no idea... and needed educating! Givenergy should do more to educate their approved installers.
With regard to Eddi I'm not sure its so useful but others may have another view. My thinking:
mark8par As Tim says, it can power the whole house as long as you don't have any high power devices running. Our background energy is between 200w - 450w depending on what's kicking in (fridge, freezer, etc...). This is more than enough for the EPS, which allows drawing 2600w from the battery without solar and 3600 when solar is being generated. In your case, I think if that is Gen 2 you may even be able to draw more from the battery without solar, I don't know what the latest specs are.
Ah, we have everything on a manual switchover to make sure we have the opportunity to turn off any high power devices before switching to EPS.
We have just had our EPS connected exactly as you and Tim say.
If power goes off, switch off any High load items that may have been running, nip into garage and turn off inverter mains supply and throw a changeover switch for whole house to run on battery.
Our usage with lights on in Winter, TV, WiFi, Central heating pump on and fridge freezer working is somewhere around 600W, so battery would keep everything on for about 10 hours. Overnight usage is about 200W, so as long as it is not a really dull day we could probably keep the battery topped up.
Hopefully we don't get to the point where we have power outages over Winter, but we would now at least have the ability to keep the lights on (plus the fridge running with medication that need to remain refrigerated).
Do you need a GivEnergy certified electrician to do this, or will any electrician be able to do it? Would it be best to go back to the original installers who did our whole PV installation?
Any qualified electrician should be able to do this. But may be worth talking to your original installers in first instance.
The principles are straightforward but your specific circumstances may dictate the best way to achieve it.
Earthing important too - as mentioned!
Tim Adams my installers said extra earthing wasn’t required. Hope they are right. They installed a standard double socket straight off the inverter EPS.
TX200 recommend reading:
https://kb.givenergy.cloud/assets/EPS%20Configuration%20v2.pdf
seems pretty clear to me ... that is "Method 1"
Socket will require TT earthing method.
hello. am i right in thinking that even though you've got eps, it will only last as long as the battery and that the solar panels will not produce anything in the coming blackouts? is there a way around this?
ty
suk i'm not 100% certain but my understanding is that solar should produce and should charge batteries during a powercut
suk true for the AC 3.0, as the PV is AC coupled on the supply side of the battery system. PV should carry on working for the Hybrid.
Tim Adams yep read that document, which is why I was surprised. But I'm not an electrician, so went with what my installer said.
TX200 those more qualified than me can correct if wrong - I'm am pretty sure you must have a seperate earth for the EPS. If the grid is lost you can't guarantee the grid supplied earth is still present. Of course if the house already uses it's own earth (TT) then all is OK - typically applies to very rural properties I suspect.
stevelewis I wonder though how a seperate solar inverter behaves if the whole house is switched over using a manual switch - surely the solar inverter would see a "grid" supply again?
GrahamRead I don't think it's the fact that the system "sees a grid supply". I think it's a case of older properties have earthing to a copper water pipe which stays operating as an earth even without a grid connection. On modern houses the incoming mains cable is used to earth back to the transformer and if the mains are disconnected so is the earth.
GrahamRead it'll end in tears as soon as the load falls below the PV generation and the voltage rises as a result. It can be done with Victron equipment, where the frequency of the EPS is modulated to control the output of the attached PV inverter, but not GE. Maybe a software upgrade one day, assuming the GE hardware can handle it.
Sorry to hijack this discussion, but it was linked to in another thread. I have a GE hybrid inverter DC-coupled to 5.2 kWh battery and 6 kW solar, and am also trying to explore ways to keep power flowing in the event of a short scheduled blackout. I was told by my installer that I either need a new consumer unit and separate earth (to power socket from EPS) or a new consumer unit + separate earth + rewiring throughout (for partial or full power of house sockets from EPS). Both options are rather expensive!
I can understand why it is a bad thing to have solar/battery connected directly to house in the absence of grid earth, but presumably in a scheduled power outage the grid earth is still functional, so why can't the grid earth still be used without requiring a separate earth and consumer unit for the EPS load? Also, why is it not possible to safely cut (or truncate) the output power on EPS to within the allowable maximum without risking damage to the inverter?
thanks.
Tim Adams I know this is late in the day but I emailed GivEnergy last week regarding this and they said it had to be done be a GivEnergy approved electrican 🙁
The All in one can replace the grid. It's part of the design.
So connected AC solar will continue to operate in an outage as normal, as will the whole house if the Gsteway is installed, isolating the grid.
lordaxil
You will need a TT earth.
In the event of a grid failure the microgeneration (PV, battery and inverter) must be cut off from the grid supply in case a person from the electricity company is working upstream thinking all is isolated further upstream on the grid and then gets hit with power from your house installation. This is what happens with normal PV and inverter.
The hybrid inverter does the same and disconnects the main power output to the house so it cannot back feed to the grid.
There is a separate EPS output from the inverter that can output power from the battery and PVs (if sun is shining), BUT the circuits need to be wired in such a way that they are disconnected from the main incoming supply cables.
This is most easily done to just feed a couple of wall sockets but not much good if you want to power a couple of light circuits, power circuits, boiler etc as you would end up with extension leads everywhere.
The way to do it is add a new small (Essential) consumer unit fed from the EPS output and disconnect those circuits from your existing consumer unit -may need to extend the cables if no spare slack.
In normal conditions the mains output of the inverter will run the existing CU and the EPS output will run the Essential CU.
On grid failure the existing main CU output will be disconnected so no power can go back to the grid. The EPS may drop for a few seconds and then cut back in.
Just make sure the loads on the essential board a low enough to be supported by the EPS output. No dishwasher or electric oven etc which may be on.
Add in a manual changeover switch to the new CU so it can be fed from the existing CU for maintenance of the inverter, OR have it always set to grid output and only switch it to EPS if mains goes off AFTER shutting off any big loads on the CU if you can't easily rewire them.
The TT earth is required because new supply cables may earth back at the substation and if the person from the electricity board has disconnected your supply (or the street etc) to work on it, you will loose your earth.
This is what the knowledge base schematics show
Ra will be interesting to see how they can justify that!
The provided GE info around EPS is currently poor and their approved installers typically seem to have no more idea than any other electrician
Tim Adams That's certainly been my experience - the installers either don't want to touch it with a bargepole, or they're just referring to the same PDF from the GivEnergy support pages. Still looking for someone to do it - not sure where to look tbh, hard to know who you can trust...
I have had email conversations with GivEnergy and there is no way currently to automatically set the battery percentage to a value that is held in the event of a grid failure and/or announced blackout.
They are currently working on it
For now I think it is a manual exercise using the app or dashboard
Steve
SteveCook or if you want to explore automation (e.g. home assistant, givTCP, APIs etc)...
Monitor the percentage and when it goes under 40% set the discharge rate to zero. If it goes above say 45% set it back to max or some other value.
TheDragon (GivEnergy) that's not the message I received from GE in January. Connecting a second AC power source, such as stand-alone PV, to the EPS output will damage the EPS as there is no way to control the power output of the second source. The EPS voltage will get pulled up if supply exceeds demand as the PV tries to back feed the EPS.
stevelewis The All in ONE is not an EPS system. Its a full grid replacement, which will support PV and provide the synchronous voltage for it. What I dont understand is how if the battery was full, it can control a 3rd party solar to back off, to prevent the excess voltage if islanded.
That part of the Spec is a bit grey
TheDragon (GivEnergy) . Will the 3rd party solar inverter not automatically back off or switch off when the upper limit of voltage is reached (UK is 253.0 V)?
The question then is, what happens when the islanded voltage falls again with no generation?
Does the inverter then repeat the on/off cycle depending on its response time to over voltage conditions?
TheDragon (GivEnergy) I stand corrected on the all in one. The usual scheme is for the battery-based inverter to vary the supply frequency with load and signal for the PV system to back off its power as the frequency increases.
Simon_C the power output of the PV inverter is controlled by the supply frequency to prevent the cycling you describe
stevelewis interesting. Modulating soar output by slight tweaking frequency.
Where was this from.
Curious as am looking at one if they are ever released
Frequency shift - Powerwalls do it if you Google those.
Long story short when they get full and want the standalone inverter to stop they skew the frequency out of spec until the inverters shutdown.
It's an interesting solution but not without it's faults as you'll find.
TheDragon (GivEnergy) it's how the Victron Multiplus works with a load-side PV inverter. Others too, I'm sure. The PV inverter also needs to play ball.
Wonder when the official spec sheet for the All in One is released. The draft one wasnt didnt have much detail other than the headline info
Hi everyone, I tried the EPS function for the first time yesterday but it didn’t work? I have separate circuits covered by the EPS within the fuse board. Has anybody else had this? Is there a setting to turn it on?
I have email giv but waiting for their reply.
Cheers
Craig1 i assume it does not have a manual changeover switch?
Are the EPS circuits supposed to be always covered by EPS i.e they don't attempt to pull more than the max?
max afaik
2.6kw Gen1
3.6kw Gen2
Tim Adams
Hi Tim,
correct, no change over switch. The inverter supply’s the circuits under normal conditions then “in theory” just supply the EPS connected circuits until the battery is drained.
As I flicked the switch the lights flickered then went off? No EPS
Craig1
According to the KB drawings, the EPS fuse board should be fed from the EPS output and will always be live when grid power is live. The main grid input/output will also be live.
When grid power fails, the main grid input/output will be dead and the EPS output will go off for a few seconds whilst the inverter sorts itself out and disconnects the grid input/output, it will then energize the EPS circuit up to the max capacities quoted by Tim.
The manual changeover switch suggested by Tim is for 2 inputs (EPS and from main grid CU) with single output to the essential load CU.
This serves 2 functions. If left in grid supply position to essential CU and mains goes off, any big loads can be turned off before switching to EPS input. It also allows switching to grid supply position in case the inverter is offline for maintenance.
How did you wire and try the EPS. Is it live when grid is live
Did you kill grid input to the inverter so it self isolated and then fed the EPS.
Were you loads bigger than the max allowable and it shut down as described in the KB article
Is there an inline RCD and isolator near the inverter that might not have been closed
Craig1
Craig "what switch"
Was the battery charged
Were the loads too big and either the inverter shut down, or the inline breaker overload has tripped
Craig1
Craig
How have you got separate circuits within the fuseboard?
Is it a split board with separate input cables from the EPS and from grid, separate main switches and RCDs and separate live, neutral and earth bars (see note about TT earth may be possible to share earth bar)
Must be a very big fuseboard
Hi Steve,
There is no manual change over switch, it is as you described in your first paragraph. The loads connected to the inverter are all low power LED lights, combi boiler etc to be sure I have protected the inverter with a 10 amp mcb to stop any overloading.
I wired from the eps terminals under the inverter, though a time delayed RCD and into the bottom tire of my CU supplying EPS conventional circuits.
The switch comment was that I isolated the main DP switch after the electric meter to simulate a power cut. Apologies, I could have been clearer on that. I isolated it there because the CT clamp is after that cut out switch.
Cheers
It’s a two tier Hager CU. Top tier is for conventional circuits including supplying the inverter. The bottom is fed by the EPS supply from the inverter. The only thing they share is the earthing arrangements.
I considered two boards but preferred the look of that one.
Craig1
Craig
Thanks
Then assuming the main DP switch killed grid to the inverter, it should have gone off few a few seconds to get into "island mode" and then powered up the EPS circuit (apparently the inverter can be configured by GivEnergy to act like a no break UPS if you ask them).
Assuming the EPS circuits were live when grid was "live"
Did any breakers trip when you opened the main isolator?
Was the battery charged
SteveCook
Hi Steve, I didn’t know about the “UPS” option, thanks for that.
No breakers tripped and battery was about 50% charged.
I’m on the phone to giv tenchical now (rather on hold lol), hopefully they can shed some light on if I have done anything wrong.
👍
Craig1
Thanks
Keep me informed please as I am on the point of doing the same as soon as the electrician turns up
TheDragon (GivEnergy) Hello,
I have an AIO and there was a power cut today for a prolonged period. It switched over to battery but it took >the 20ms as stated as everything turned off and lost all connections. When it had switched over, half of my RCD had tripped meaning I had to manually reset it. My main concern is that my PV was offline for the entire duration and therefore I wasn't able to generate anything.
Is this normal behaviour?
Cheers,
Niall
Not normal on a Powerwall so shouldn’t be on an AIO. Did the installer do the correct earth/neutral bonding and install an earth rod dependent on your earth?
Hello, yes there is an earth rod and it all seems properly done. I'm hopeful it's a communication problem with the PV inverter as the AIO and gateway seem ok.
I would contact the installer and ask them to check, multiple RCD shouldn’t trip.
As they trip due to “earth leakage”, then there is a reasonable chance the issue is with the neutral earth bonding/relay/switching and so I would get that checked.
RCD don’t trip due to comms issues between battery/inverter.
Yes good point. Apologies, my clumsy response to you earlier was about why I thought the PV inverter was going offline (possibly communication problem). I had moved on from the RCD tripping. You are correct and when the installers come back to have a look, I'll bring up the RCD issue again and have it checked.
NC
When you say half your RCD(s?) had tripped, do you mean all your circuits are individually protected (RCBO) or you have a spilt board and a single RCD (RCCB?) had tripped taking out half of the board, or do you have 2 boards each with main switch/RCD, or some other combination?